newbie needs help comparing APL versus J versus K!

Hi,
I'm interested in re-learning APL for hobby programming and maybe as
an extra tool for my work (physics). I use macs and PCs, various OSes.

--aside:
I say re-learning because I did learn the basics once while doing work
experience for a company in Frankfurt 15 years ago. I remember I
really enjoyed the language and found it very graceful. They ran their
APL on a shared central machine that (I was told) never executed less
than one line of APL - so of course I wrote a on-liner for the
mandelbrot set. All great fun!
--

ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
(discovering to my disapointment that they don't use special
characters, but oh well!), however I haven't found a really helpful
comparision of the three. In particular:

(a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
right choice as a newbie!
(a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
languages perhaps.
(b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
of users and enthusiasts?
(c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
vendor specific products...
(d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
APL for example.

Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
much apppreciated!

Bob Hoekstra <Bob.Hoekstra@hoekstrasystems.ltd.uk> wrote:

: Yes, the prices show above are all true. But
: Gnu compiler collection (C, C++, Fortran, Java) Free
: Sun's Java Free
: Perl Free
: Python Free
: Ruby Free
: Various versions of Lisp, Smalltalk, blah, blah, blah... Free

Does A+ not fulfill the criteria?




-- georg

Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<c51apo$mkv$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...
> Bob Hoekstra <Bob.Hoekstra@hoekstrasystems.ltd.uk> wrote:
>
> : Yes, the prices show above are all true. But
> : Gnu compiler collection (C, C++, Fortran, Java) Free
> : Sun's Java Free
> : Perl Free
> : Python Free
> : Ruby Free
> : Various versions of Lisp, Smalltalk, blah, blah, blah... Free
>
> Does A+ not fulfill the criteria?

J on www.jsoftware.com
is obviously now Free
and not just any trial version.

I do not know how they do it

It would be interesting to know how the usage of J has been during
different periods of pricing

They have tried different ways of pricing and the number of users is
obviously growing and the interest in various problems being solved
with J is clear from the forum.

At the moment I particularly like the discussion about
[Jforum] linear interpolation
and many interesting solutions and insights

It would be better if such discussions could be held here in c.l.a
because mailing lists are so heavy on the mailbox - would be much
better to use the news mechanism

"Bjorn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote:
> J on www.jsoftware.com
> is obviously now Free
> and not just any trial version.
>
> I do not know how they do it
>
> It would be interesting to know how the usage of J has been during
> different periods of pricing

J is free as in price not as in GNU.

The APL/J/K and even Glee comunity is very small. Lets face it our whole
array language community is NOT on the horizon compared with JAVA, VB, and
C#. (COBOL for that matter).

The value proposition is NOT in software license, but in services.

The more people that use a product then the more services and support is
required.

Even Red Hat (Linux) still have their free version (Fedora). What you pay
for for Red Hat now is full strength support - the software is still GNU
GPL'd - you get the source code and can do what you wish with it subject to
the GNU GPL.

<rant>Get used to it people, this is what M$ are sh*t scared of, having to
deliver service instead of proprietory product. Lets face it M$ don't know
what service means. If M$ could deliver service then they would rule the
universe. </rant>

If we want array languages to flourish they need to be adopted by the
technical comunity and then the benefits demonstrated to the rest of the
business and management. At best we are a niche community, albeit an
important one for computer science.

To enable array languages to flourish there needs to be minimal barriers to
techo's playing with the technology.

My 2.2 cents (inc 10% GST).

Regards, Kym

"Kym" <not@here.com> wrote in message news:<40773139$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>...
> "Bjorn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote:
> > J on www.jsoftware.com
> > is obviously now Free
> > and not just any trial version.

.......

> The value proposition is NOT in software license, but in services.
>
> The more people that use a product then the more services and support is
> required.

........


> To enable array languages to flourish there needs to be minimal barriers to
> techo's playing with the technology.

I think you are right and I have been proposing that for APL:s a long
time

I believe that this latest step by J developers will be a major step
for APL

J has all the qualities a major product needs to succeed and it will
be such a joy to see it become one

I still find it very hard to brand J and give a first answer to what
is J

If I say J is a computer language I can possibly scare off those who
do not like computer languages and they shut their ears for further
info

If I say J is a mathematics tool I may be misleading some who are
looking for a tool with traditional math

If I say J is a calculator it is missing the buttons a calculator has

If I say J is a tool to play and make games it is a bit hard to
convince beginners that taking pousse and/or solitaire and create your
own similar game would be something worth their while

If I say J is an APL I loose all of those who have given up on APL

If I say J is an APL I may also loose many of those who do use APL and
do not find the characters

In a sense J is all of the above and more and I can now without
reservation tell people that the answer is best demontrated and I can
get a copy they can then freely use for free

Invariably I find it best to start by showing a sample of how J can be
a calculator, a short trip through plot demo and labs, show pousse and
now I am looking forward to add solitaire to the repertoire and then a
short trip into the help

I am always looking for an answer to the question "what is J?"

When I am not in the position to demonstrate it I mostly point to the
translation of the J Primer
http://linux.is/forritun/data/J/grunnur.pdf and ask for a permission
to give a demo

APL : J : K
Schonberg : Berg : Webern



"oxonian" <oxonian@mac.com> wrote in message news:fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.co m...
> Hi,
> I'm interested in re-learning APL for hobby programming and maybe as
> an extra tool for my work (physics). I use macs and PCs, various OSes.
>
> --aside:
> I say re-learning because I did learn the basics once while doing work
> experience for a company in Frankfurt 15 years ago. I remember I
> really enjoyed the language and found it very graceful. They ran their
> APL on a shared central machine that (I was told) never executed less
> than one line of APL - so of course I wrote a on-liner for the
> mandelbrot set. All great fun!
> --
>
> ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
> these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
> (discovering to my disapointment that they don't use special
> characters, but oh well!), however I haven't found a really helpful
> comparision of the three. In particular:
>
> (a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
> language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
> definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
> one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
> right choice as a newbie!
> (a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
> mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
> uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
> languages perhaps.
> (b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
> of users and enthusiasts?
> (c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
> reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
> vendor specific products...
> (d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
> available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
> APL for example.
>
> Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
> much apppreciated!