The sort of experience that has led me to my theories iof pupular software development (was How compoetent are we)

I'm dealing with the "Viruses are Bad" (VAB) anti-virus software company -
real name not used to save them from the embarrassment of losing a libel
suit.

My software license is expiring shortly so I got a message inviting me to
renew. Good. I went to the VAB site. Now to me "renew" has definite
connotations including the one that they have a record of me and would want
me to identify myself so as to take advantage of it. Not so! Step one is
to specify what I want to renew. Difficult: what I have is no longer
available, and it wasn't clear what would be the correct replacement
product. I chose one based on the description which seemed to most closely
resemble what I have (and later on found a bit of the screen that verified
this).

Once the product is selected we get into name & address & the dirty details.
I expected to be able to enter my e-mail & password (VAB-assigned) and so
call up the information which they have, and go from there. No! The site
treats all renewals as a new sale. I had to enter name/address/credit card
#, etc., etc., and only then enter my e-mail & password.

Now I inadvertently entered the wrong password, thus causing the system to
treat me as a new customer. Not wholly unreasonable, although I'd have
thought that e-mail addresses are "unique enough" that it could say "login
failure" as most sites would. Whatever; it went on to ask me to enter my
shipping address if it was diferent from my billing address. It's the same,
but there is no way to bypass this screen; even that would be acceptable;
but it wants a shipping method: it shows a pull-down list with the label
"Select one". The only choice on the list is "Select one"! And of course
that's unacceptable. So you as a new customer can't (well, I couldn't) even
order from them!

Once I figured this out I entered the correct password and was able to
complete the order. The screen urges you to download right away, so I
started it up. I only have dialup access (and I admit I'm going to have to
upgrade to the 20th century one of these days!) so it took over an hour to
download. And only then, after all that time, and after charging my credit
card, did it tell me that my O/S isn't supported!

To my mind there are so many things wrong with this site that it's
mind-boggling.

1) it should ask for your id immediately. Then it can present mailing &
payment details for verification immediately. It can then say "you have
such-and-such of our products: this is the replacement, these are
enhancement products - please select one". That being done it can give you
a list of system requirements to ensure that you'll be able to proceed.

2) the download procedure should as step one verify that you do in fact have
the required system resources. It may take a few seconds but is worth the
time.

3) although this is tricky the charge should not occur until you've
successfully loaded the package: at least not the whole amount. I'm not
sure if I'll get a refund or not.

4) there is no way that the shipping method bug should happen. It is far
too blatant! Any bugs that exist should be connected with very obscure
circumstances. I can't imagine how this got by.


For new customers they may have the right idea, presenting the products
first. But it seems to me that system requirements should be next: and only
then the n&a etc.


Now VAB isn't a newcomer to the field. I've been dealing with them since
2001 and have had trouble often with their web site. A company that's been
in business so long really should have got it right by now! (The product
seems to work OK and any time I've contacted the Help service a real live
person has responded. I know this because the response doesn't include
stupid boiler-plate suggestions like "are you sure you're actually connected
to the internet?" I've found that "contacting" them is pretty devious
because they prefer you to specify all sorts of possibilities right down to
the last quarter inch before you can send a message but they do reply).

Now PD reckons that I'm wrong in my theory about popular software being
written by brilliant but inexperienced people. This site strikes me as one
that assumes everything will be done correctly by the user: a rookie
mistake. The bug is inexcusable. So there are four possibilities: the
designers, the developers, and the testers were all Drunk, Incompetent,
Completely inexperienced, or Inexperienced in customer relations. The last
seems most likely: the people that develop the virus signature files and the
scanning algorithms were the ones that developed the web site as well, but
they by virtue of their specialities didn't understand the different
requirements.

RW has stated that

"Cobol shops usually have formal institutionalized crap; other shops usually
do not.

Many or most Cobol shops have a 1980s standard containing a long list of
Thou Shall Nots, which are rigorously enforced. Shops using other languages
either have no standard or a positive, suggestive one".

We can assume that VAB isn't using Cobol for its web site. I invite RW to
give us some ideas of what positive and suggestive standards could be
employed to create a site that is as mis-shaped as this one!

Oh: I said that "himan nature is universal". Of all possible philosophical
statements, I'd have thought that that would rank as an axiom!
PL

"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:FJIrk.5642$4s1.5022@newsfe06.iad...
> 1) it should ask for your id immediately. Then it can present mailing &
> payment details for verification immediately. It can then say "you have
> such-and-such of our products: this is the replacement, these are
> enhancement products - please select one". That being done it can give
> you
> a list of system requirements to ensure that you'll be able to proceed.

I would agree except for one thing: credit card info should not be recalled,
as it should not be stored with the "order/renewal" system in the first
place. Vendors who do accept credit cards as payment should gather the
information required to validate the card for the current charges, then move
all the info to somewhere only accessible to "those who need to know it" -
which will be limited to to those assigned to deal with
returns/refunds/legal matters etc.

I had a surprise similar to this about a year ago. Apparently the 'default'
when you purchase McAfee is "automatic renewal." Except the computer for
which I had purchased the license was now out of service at renewal time,
and I had purchased two NEW licenses for the new desktop and laptop put into
service in that past year. By the time I realized it, I had gone past the
allowed time to cancel (this was my fault, 100%) and I was stuck for the
forty-two bucks.

I had Mcafee cancel all 'automatic renewals' .. except they didn't, as it
turns out. I just last week got a notice that I renewed one of the licenses
automatically. In this case, I WANT the renewal so nothing lost here.

BTW, this was complicated by the fact that I has used the same email address
for the first of the new computers as I had for the old one. That seemed to
mess up something, since their software told me my license was expiring on
the schedule for the old computer.

Oh well I can live with this for one reason: I've been using McAfee for
about eight years and have never been infected by anything. I've only gotten
six or eight "stop" messages from it when opening a file, but each time it's
happened I'm glad I had the AV in place.

Not terribly relevant but I felt like rambling this AM.

MCM

"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:FJIrk.5642$4s1.5022@newsfe06.iad...
> I'm dealing with the "Viruses are Bad" (VAB) anti-virus software company -
> real name not used to save them from the embarrassment of losing a libel
> suit.

Obviously, it is hard to comment specifically without knowing which company
it is, but I can say, I read this with mounting incredulity.

It is abysmal and you have every right to be upset.

>
> My software license is expiring shortly so I got a message inviting me to
> renew. Good. I went to the VAB site. Now to me "renew" has definite
> connotations including the one that they have a record of me and would
> want
> me to identify myself so as to take advantage of it.

Such is indeed the case with the anti-virus company I use. (And it is
definitely not the best one available...)



> Not so! Step one is
> to specify what I want to renew.

You are right and they should know this. If they don't, they shouldn't be
asking you to renew.


>Difficult: what I have is no longer
> available, and it wasn't clear what would be the correct replacement
> product. I chose one based on the description which seemed to most
> closely
> resemble what I have (and later on found a bit of the screen that verified
> this).
>
> Once the product is selected we get into name & address & the dirty
> details.
> I expected to be able to enter my e-mail & password (VAB-assigned) and so
> call up the information which they have, and go from there.

A perfectly reasonable and valid assumption.

> No! The site
> treats all renewals as a new sale. I had to enter name/address/credit
> card
> #, etc., etc., and only then enter my e-mail & password.
>

Why did you do it? Why not let it expire and go with AVG or one of the
better free ones?

> Now I inadvertently entered the wrong password, thus causing the system to
> treat me as a new customer. Not wholly unreasonable, although I'd have
> thought that e-mail addresses are "unique enough" that it could say "login
> failure" as most sites would.

I agree and sites I author behave that way. In fact mine would offer to mail
you your password if you had forgotten it, or let you change it to the new
one, once we were certain you are who you claim to be... (From a practical
point of view I don't want to create a new account every time someone
forgets a password, and it is not possible to create a new account for an
existing unique ID (email).


>Whatever; it went on to ask me to enter my
> shipping address if it was diferent from my billing address. It's the
> same,
> but there is no way to bypass this screen; even that would be acceptable;

Are you sure you didn't miss something? This is just unbelievable.

> but it wants a shipping method: it shows a pull-down list with the label
> "Select one". The only choice on the list is "Select one"! And of course
> that's unacceptable. So you as a new customer can't (well, I couldn't)
> even
> order from them!
>
> Once I figured this out I entered the correct password and was able to
> complete the order. The screen urges you to download right away, so I
> started it up. I only have dialup access (and I admit I'm going to have
> to
> upgrade to the 20th century one of these days!) so it took over an hour to
> download. And only then, after all that time, and after charging my
> credit
> card, did it tell me that my O/S isn't supported!

This is absolute bollocks! Personally, I wouldn't deal with such a company.
If they can't handle a user interface like this, what reason would you have
to believe that their product is any better designed or efficacous?

>
> To my mind there are so many things wrong with this site that it's
> mind-boggling.
>

Agreed.

> 1) it should ask for your id immediately. Then it can present mailing &
> payment details for verification immediately. It can then say "you have
> such-and-such of our products: this is the replacement, these are
> enhancement products - please select one". That being done it can give
> you
> a list of system requirements to ensure that you'll be able to proceed.
>
> 2) the download procedure should as step one verify that you do in fact
> have
> the required system resources. It may take a few seconds but is worth the
> time.

I am using ClickOnce for my stuff and can specify pre-requisites. These are
checked for before the download. If you don't have them, the install process
offers to get them for you...I can determine where I want them to be
obtained from (usually a MicroSoft Download site, or a third party vendor
web site), or I can "package" them with the application you are getting from
me. (Actually, you'd be downloading it from my web server...) Point is that
in this day and age there is no excuse for forcing an unnecessary download.

>
> 3) although this is tricky the charge should not occur until you've
> successfully loaded the package: at least not the whole amount. I'm not
> sure if I'll get a refund or not.

I'm amazed you even bought it. I wouldn't have.

>
> 4) there is no way that the shipping method bug should happen. It is far
> too blatant! Any bugs that exist should be connected with very obscure
> circumstances. I can't imagine how this got by.
>
>
> For new customers they may have the right idea, presenting the products
> first. But it seems to me that system requirements should be next: and
> only
> then the n&a etc.
>
>
> Now VAB isn't a newcomer to the field. I've been dealing with them since
> 2001 and have had trouble often with their web site. A company that's
> been
> in business so long really should have got it right by now! (The product
> seems to work OK and any time I've contacted the Help service a real live
> person has responded. I know this because the response doesn't include
> stupid boiler-plate suggestions like "are you sure you're actually
> connected
> to the internet?" I've found that "contacting" them is pretty devious
> because they prefer you to specify all sorts of possibilities right down
> to
> the last quarter inch before you can send a message but they do reply).

Fair enough. I still wouldn't renew and I'd tell them why.
>
> Now PD reckons that I'm wrong in my theory about popular software being
> written by brilliant but inexperienced people.

That's not completely fair, Peter. I believe that inexperienced people can
write extremely good software (I've seen them do it), but I also know that
the quality of software is not just about the quality of the programmers and
their experience levels; it is about how the whole process of development is
undertaken. QA is the responsibility of the company, not just one tiny part
of it (not even the "QA" department...)

> This site strikes me as one
> that assumes everything will be done correctly by the user: a rookie
> mistake. The bug is inexcusable. So there are four possibilities: the
> designers, the developers, and the testers were all Drunk, Incompetent,
> Completely inexperienced, or Inexperienced in customer relations.

You are showing limited vision... there are many more possibilities than
just the ones you suggest.

Perhaps the web site was outsourced to a startup, or done cheaply by the
CEO's nephew after school. Maybe it was bought second hand from a failed Dot
Com (it failed because of its appalling Web experience...). Maybe there
WERE NO "designers,developers, and testers"; perhaps they built it from a
template they bought for a few bucks from "Webs R Us", The point is that it
is amateurish in the extreme, does not inspire confidence, and therefore it
is very unwise to provide further funding to such a company.


>The last
> seems most likely: the people that develop the virus signature files and
> the
> scanning algorithms were the ones that developed the web site as well, but
> they by virtue of their specialities didn't understand the different
> requirements.

Possible, but I think unlikely. Web development would be perceived by these
guys as not their field of expertise. They're right. Unfortunately, they are
SO right that they are not even capabable of seeing what a horror show this
is...

If I were you, I'd instigate the refund procedure immediately. You'd be
better off with FREE AV protection than paying for the privelege of all this
nonsense every time you need to renew. If you don't have broadband your Web
traffic will not be so high as to expose you to a risk that can't be well
managed by free products like AVG or Avast! (there are others that are also
excellent...) (Even if you DO have Broadband and spend a lot of time on the
Web, these products can provide good protection.)

I have heard very good things about Avast from several people. You can
download (for free) from here...

http://anti-virus-solution.com/avast2/

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything".

You ask why I persist in using VAB: you might call it fatalism. Once I
ordered a book from Amazon (after they'd taken over "bibliofind") and it
wasn't until after I'd paid that they informed me it was not in stock. But
what left me utterly defenceless was the time when "Discover" magazine
informed me that my >>VISA<< card was not on the list of recognized cards!
And they were not able to accept postal money orders from Canada!

There are some sites I deal with that >>so far<< work properly and give me
no trouble (although e-lance is forever fixing things that aren't broken)
but I always expect the worst. And bail out if I can.

PL