Declining Cobol job market

#21 09-06-2008, 08:00 PM

Hey Pete - I have not been igoring writing a reply to you,
but I did get kind of distracted.

Would you mind dropping me a line at my normal e-mail address
please? I would like to chat with you about reveiwing a short
paper.

Thanks
-Paul

paul dot raulerson at mac dot com

Pete Dashwood wrote:

>
>
> "PR" <paul.raulerson@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e41e894f-f8aa-4e3f-9b6b-932190cacd0d@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 25, 11:04 pm, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
>> In the 10 years I've been a Cobol/Unix contract programmer (13 gigs),
>> demand for Cobol in
>> the US has slowly been declining. Demand is now so low that it's
>> unreasonable to continue
>> pursuing Cobol jobs. With sadness, I'm switching my specialty to PL/SQL
>> and affiliated
>> server side Unix tools. While working as a Cobol programmer, I spent more
>> time solving SQL
>> problems than Cobol problems. Now I find there are a large number of
>> shops doing 100% of
>> server side programming in PL/SQ. Apparently, there are more PL/SQL shops
>> than Cobol
>> shops. How lame, but that's reality.
>
>
> Well, while is unarguable that COBOL jobs have declined in quantity
> over the past decade, I
> have noticed that people who can "get the job done" are in ever
> greater demand these days.
> Doesn't matter if the do it in COBOL or Sanskrit, if it gets done on
> time, works, and is
> fast enough, it's a success.
>
> A lot of COBOL programmers (and RPG programmers, and Assembler
> programmers, and PL/1,
> and Pascal, and Fortran, and <pick a "legacy" language of your choice>
> programmers
> actually fall right into that job description.
>
> Most "web programmers" don't. Amazing - COBOL programmers can learn to
> wrangle the web, but
> web jockies seem to be unable to handle COBOL.
>
> [Pete]
>
> Motivation has much to do with it. Why would an accomplished Web
> programmer want to learn COBOL? You might as well ask a journalist to
> learn Sanskrit.
>
> Your statement that COBOL people "CAN learn to wrangle the Web" is true,
> but they have great difficulty in doing so. (I have had to teach some of
> them and, just like learning OO concepts and usage in general, they
> struggle with it.) There is a tendency amongst people who have used COBOL
> for decades to believe it is the "right" way and any other way which is
> not congruent with it must be wrong. New, unfamiliar concepts and the
> associated jargon are considered "difficult and complex" and viewed with
> suspicion. Attempts to hang new ideas on old pegs result in "ITSA" when it
> should be "ITSLIKE" and fundamental misunderstandings ensue.
>
> It comes down to mastering OO concepts. COBOL people are, generally, not
> good at it and people with no previous programming experience walk all
> over them, in my experience. I know which ones I'd rather teach.
>
> While your opinions expressed above will be comforting to many who are
> currently feeling a bit "unloved", the actuality is that there are good
> and bad COBOL programmers, just like there are good and bad Web
> programmers, and generalizing about either group is simply suspect.
>
> I have seen nothing that makes me think Legacy programmers are better at
> picking up new concepts or are generally more proficient at "getting the
> job done", than anybody else. In fact, the evidence in my experience tends
> to the contrary, at least when it comes to learning new skills.
>
> I would agree that most Legacy programmers are more disciplined in their
> approach, but that is often more to do with age and maturity than any
> particular programming skill.
>
> A person of normal ability, who is motivated and wants to learn something,
> can apply themselves to it and the degee of their success is predictable,
> depending on the levels of motivation, application, and ability.
>
> It has little to do with whether they are a Legacy programmer or not.
>
> [/Pete]
>
> Now I wonder what that means...
> [Pete]
>
> It means your opinion is a generalization, is arguable, and is biased to
> the result you would like to believe. :-)
>
> Pete.

#22 09-07-2008, 12:55 AM

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:21:46 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>In article <nvtbb4df0274jo54pbau02ri2r7a6dof5q@4ax.com>,
>Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Last week a recruiter said a place might take six weeks to make a
>>decision. I responded,
>>"they've created a filter that insures the person they hire will be one
>>who cannot find a
>>job in six weeks."
>
>I've had those... 'they love you, they want you, they need you but... they
>won't be ready for you for (n) weeks.'
>
>'That's all right... as long as their checks clear the bank for the next
>(n) weeks I'll be happy to accomodate their schedule.'
>
>'Checks? They're not going to pay you, they just want you to wait.'
>
>'They want me to dedicate my time to fulfilling their business requirement
>of starting in (n) weeks... and not get paid for it? I can't do that...
>but I'm willing to compromise, I'll take three-quarters of my rate for
>theo waiting period.'
>
>'No... they just want you to wait, do nothing... and not get paid.'
>
>'Oh... well, they're offering an n-month contract, let's add in the lost
>earnings into the projected total and raise the rate to make up for it.'
>
>'You can't do that... I agreed to a rate!'
>
>'You may have agreed to a rate... I can't agree to waiting six weeks
>without pay. You want something with that kind of flexibility call a
>car-rental office; Avis is listed on the stock-exchange... I'm not.'

I knew a guy who was 'guaranteed' a job with the state of Illinois after the election.
Based on that, he moved to Springfield and signed an apartment lease. Unfortunately and
unexpectedly, the wrong candidate, Blagojevich, won. He fired all, about 1,000, IT
contractors. Some were later rehired so the state could continue functioning. My friend
licked his wounds and found a job elsewhere.

#23 09-07-2008, 02:37 AM

> Hey Pete - I have not been igoring writing a reply to you,
> but I did get kind of distracted.
>
> Would you mind dropping me a line at my normal e-mail address
> please? I would like to chat with you about reveiwing a short
> paper.

>
> Thanks
> -Paul
>

OK.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

#24 09-07-2008, 09:18 PM

In article <vjm6c4pljmf9vu93v2359oej7mqk8v53k5@4ax.com>,
Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:21:46 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

[snip]

>>'You may have agreed to a rate... I can't agree to waiting six weeks
>>without pay. You want something with that kind of flexibility call a
>>car-rental office; Avis is listed on the stock-exchange... I'm not.'
>
>I knew a guy who was 'guaranteed' a job with the state of Illinois after
>the election.

Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
of tuition.

DD

#25 09-08-2008, 10:29 AM

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
> of tuition.
>

I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.

I do believe I shall be using it in the future.

MCM

#26 09-08-2008, 01:22 PM

In article <%Faxk.20963$mh5.19789@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,
Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com...
>>
>> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
>> of tuition.
>>
>
>I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.
>
>I do believe I shall be using it in the future.

I'm almost sure I've heard something similar to it from someplace, Mr
Mattias, and should not claim it as original; if that was the appearance
then I apologise for not being sufficiently specific.

Enjoy!

DD

#27 09-08-2008, 03:43 PM

On Sep 8, 1:22*pm, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <%Faxk.20963$mh5.19...@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>
> Michael Mattias <mmatt...@talsystems.com> wrote:
> ><docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com....
>
> >> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
> >> of tuition.
>
> >I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.
>
> >I do believe I shall be using it in the future.
>
> I'm almost sure I've heard something similar to it from someplace, Mr
> Mattias, and should not claim it as original; if that was the appearance
> then I apologise for not being sufficiently specific.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> DD

The variation I've heard is, "I just bought my degree from the School
of Hard Knocks."

Most of us stop with a Bachelor's, but I think I went to Graduate
School. :-)

Question, Mr. DD: Is tuition less if you are a resident of a "lower
cost of living" area? :-)

Ken

#28 09-08-2008, 08:28 PM

In article <7b9bd548-08bc-4788-bc8a-972d37434daa@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
klshafer@att.net <klshafer@att.net> wrote:
>On Sep 8, 1:22*pm, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>> In article <%Faxk.20963$mh5.19...@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>>
>> Michael Mattias <mmatt...@talsystems.com> wrote:
>> ><docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com...
>>
>> >> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
>> >> of tuition.
>>
>> >I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.
>>
>> >I do believe I shall be using it in the future.
>>
>> I'm almost sure I've heard something similar to it from someplace, Mr
>> Mattias, and should not claim it as original;

[apologies for cutting myself off in midesntence]

[snip]

>Question, Mr. DD: Is tuition less if you are a resident of a "lower
>cost of living" area? :-)

I've never had a pimp tell me this would be the case, Mr Shafer... and
even if one were to do so I'd still consider it as full of value as any
assurance-of-a-pimp.

DD

#29 09-09-2008, 06:53 AM

"Michael Mattias" <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote in message
news:%Faxk.20963$mh5.19789@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com...
>>
>> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy rate
>> of tuition.
>>
>
> I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.
>
> I do believe I shall be using it in the future.
>
> MCM
>

My father (who came from London) expressed it to me as: "Experience is the
best teacher, but her fees are very high", when I was about 10 years old.

BTW, Michael, you haven't responded to private mail on another matter.

Shall I take that as a "no"? :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

#30 09-09-2008, 09:02 AM

> BTW, Michael, you haven't responded to private mail on another matter.
>
> Shall I take that as a "no"? :-)

No, you may not take that as a 'no.' I sure did reply.... I hit the 'reply'
button but I see now the email address you used was not the one in my
address book so maybe the reply went off into Never-Never Land.

Anyone else interested.... If something is on any of my web sites, you can
link to the material all you want, anytime. Copying/repackaging to
redistribute is different, permission is required, and such permission is
not unreasonably withheld.

My reply below, nothing secret here.

--
Michael C. Mattias
Tal Systems Inc.
Racine WI
mmattias@talsystems.com
http://www.talsystems.com
http://www.providerpaymentpartner.com

> 9/7/08
>> I am putting up a web site for it and I remembered you have some very
>> valuable documents explaining COBOL formats and structures that are
>> really
>> quite pertinent to this exercise.
>
>> Can you let me have URLs? (We'll make sure Tal Systems and yourself are
>> properly acknowledged)
>
> No problem. It's like, the Internet, you know? You can run but you can't
> hide with "Google" on the job......
>
> You'll have to pick out which ones are relevant/suitable for your project,
> but there are three "cobol-data-related" links available:
>
> Two are on the Flexus download page:
>
> http://www.flexus.com/ftp/cobdata.zip
> "Michael Mattias has created a text and graphics based introduction to
> COBOL numeric data types. It was designed for intermediate to advanced
> programmers not familiar with the COBOL language or COBOL numeric data
> storage. A Windows Write or compatible word processor is recommended, but
> an ASCII text file format is also included). The PKZIP format file
> includes an executable program file as well as PB 3.2 source code. This
> file is Copyrighted but free for personal use. A compiler is NOT required
> to use this product. "
>
> http://www.flexus.com/ftp/cobfd.zip
> "COBOL FD Analyzer This is Tal Systems' COBFD COBOL FD Analyzer v 1.50
> (Aug '99). This freeware tool runs in PC/MS-DOS and parses COBOL source or
> copylibs. It reports the size and offset within each '01' level for all
> datanames (group and elementary). COBFD supports any level
> OCCURS/REDEFINES and most specialty compiler directives. Included are the
> executable, documentation and a demo file. Interactive and command-line
> modes allow operation with prompts or in MS-DOS batch files. Version 1.50
> adds runtime choice of word or byte storage for COMP (binary) items. "
>
> And one on my own web site:
> http://www.talsystems.com/tsihome_ht...ads/C2IEEE.htm
> "Converting COBOL-created data for use on other COBOL systems or with
> non-COBOL programs. Freeware."
>
>
>

--
Michael C. Mattias
Tal Systems Inc.
Racine WI
mmattias@talsystems.com
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:6in2skFrk76aU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Michael Mattias" <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote in message
> news:%Faxk.20963$mh5.19789@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:ga1uhn$t68$1@reader1.panix.com...
>>>
>>> Experience is quite the teacher, aye... but She can charge a healthy
>>> rate
>>> of tuition.
>>>
>>
>> I had never heard that before but I like it a lot.
>>
>> I do believe I shall be using it in the future.
>>
>> MCM
>>
>
> My father (who came from London) expressed it to me as: "Experience is the
> best teacher, but her fees are very high", when I was about 10 years old.
>
>
> Pete.
> --
> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
>
>

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