OT: I'd really like your opinion about this.... - DOTNET

"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:ksmNi.51$aa.7@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> Imagine a world where great software is cheap, where software is truly
> innovative and software companies compete based entirely on how well their
> software serves your needs and increases your productivity. Wouldn't that
> be great?
>
> Unfortunately, we don't have that now. We have a world where your data
> (in the format that you created it) is not always yours to do with as you
> please. In many instances, you cannot easily take most data (from large
> software vendors) to another application that may have better features or
> a simpler UI or just be a better value for your money.
>
> Simply put...your data isn't always yours when its trapped in a
> proprietary data format. The reason your data gets stuck in a single
> vendor's application is the use of proprietary data formats.
>
> For instance, when you design a widget using one CAD application, you may
> not be able take it to another CAD application and open or modify it.
> When you want to move from one accounting application to another, it is
> nearly impossible to transfer all of your data from company A's software
> to company B's software. Even when you want to open an Excel spreadsheet
> in OpenOffice - you'll hit hard times if you placed macros in the original
> Excel spreadsheet.
>
> It is my position that a person's data is just that - their data. They
> should be able to take it wherever they want and use it in any application
> that they want. People should not have their data held hostage and be
> forced to continue supporting companies that charge excessive fees for
> software, fail to innovate or are moving away from the customers' goals.
>
> There is a simple fix. There is a simple way to allow small software
> firms to enter established markets and compete with larger, established
> software companies. There is a cost effective way to do this so that
> businesse and individuals can enjoy the benefits of lower cost, higher
> quality software in a more competitive marketplace.
>
> That simple fix is Open Data Format legislation. Simply put, Open Data
> Format legislation would require anyome distributing software to openly
> publish the data format that the users' data is stored in 30 days prior to
> software distribution. This would apply to new releases as well as any
> software updates or patches that changed the data format. In the case of
> emergency patches, the new data format should be sent along with the
> emergency patch.
>
> What would Open Data Format legislation accomplish that is not available
> now? Open Data Format legislation would level the software playing field
> for bright, innovative software engineers and small companies to compete
> with larger established companies based on the quality of the software
> product. Open Data Format legislation would encourage more software
> competition and would lower prices for such things as office applications.
> Open Data Format legislation would mandate a new era of data sharing that
> not even the OOXML could touch as Open Data Format legislation would
> require the publication of all data formats before or at release - making
> it easy for one company to import data written using any other software
> product.
>
> Using different apps - or even OSs would be a matter of choice rather than
> a matter of being trapped. And, Open Data Format legislation would make
> it just as easy to return to your old software if you didn't like the new
> stuff as it was to leave - assuming that your old software imports the new
> software's data format.
>
> Can companies do this on their own? Sure. Software companies can reverse
> engineer one another's data formats. But this process takes months for
> some formats and many small software companies simply cannot afford to
> reverse engineer all of their competitors' proprietary data formats in a
> timely manner. This hurts consumers as much as it hurts the small
> software developer.
>
> Open Data Format legislation measn lower software prices, greater choice
> and data that is really yours.
>
> What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of Open Data Format
> legislation?
>
> Your opoinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
>
> jim
>

I see big government stifling creativity and limiting competition. Let's
see... legislate that Oracle, SQL Server, Access, DB2, SyBase, MySQL etc.
must all store data in the same format? Heh...
How would such "legislation" govern software produced in countries not
agreeing with such legislation, or are you also proposing some form of
planet government?

"PvdG42" <pvdg@toadstool.edu> wrote in message
news:ehUnzR0BIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> "jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
> news:ksmNi.51$aa.7@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>> Imagine a world where great software is cheap, where software is truly
>> innovative and software companies compete based entirely on how well
>> their software serves your needs and increases your productivity.
>> Wouldn't that be great?
>>
>> Unfortunately, we don't have that now. We have a world where your data
>> (in the format that you created it) is not always yours to do with as you
>> please. In many instances, you cannot easily take most data (from large
>> software vendors) to another application that may have better features or
>> a simpler UI or just be a better value for your money.
>>
>> Simply put...your data isn't always yours when its trapped in a
>> proprietary data format. The reason your data gets stuck in a single
>> vendor's application is the use of proprietary data formats.
>>
>> For instance, when you design a widget using one CAD application, you may
>> not be able take it to another CAD application and open or modify it.
>> When you want to move from one accounting application to another, it is
>> nearly impossible to transfer all of your data from company A's software
>> to company B's software. Even when you want to open an Excel spreadsheet
>> in OpenOffice - you'll hit hard times if you placed macros in the
>> original Excel spreadsheet.
>>
>> It is my position that a person's data is just that - their data. They
>> should be able to take it wherever they want and use it in any
>> application that they want. People should not have their data held
>> hostage and be forced to continue supporting companies that charge
>> excessive fees for software, fail to innovate or are moving away from the
>> customers' goals.
>>
>> There is a simple fix. There is a simple way to allow small software
>> firms to enter established markets and compete with larger, established
>> software companies. There is a cost effective way to do this so that
>> businesse and individuals can enjoy the benefits of lower cost, higher
>> quality software in a more competitive marketplace.
>>
>> That simple fix is Open Data Format legislation. Simply put, Open Data
>> Format legislation would require anyome distributing software to openly
>> publish the data format that the users' data is stored in 30 days prior
>> to software distribution. This would apply to new releases as well as
>> any software updates or patches that changed the data format. In the
>> case of emergency patches, the new data format should be sent along with
>> the emergency patch.
>>
>> What would Open Data Format legislation accomplish that is not available
>> now? Open Data Format legislation would level the software playing field
>> for bright, innovative software engineers and small companies to compete
>> with larger established companies based on the quality of the software
>> product. Open Data Format legislation would encourage more software
>> competition and would lower prices for such things as office
>> applications. Open Data Format legislation would mandate a new era of
>> data sharing that not even the OOXML could touch as Open Data Format
>> legislation would require the publication of all data formats before or
>> at release - making it easy for one company to import data written using
>> any other software product.
>>
>> Using different apps - or even OSs would be a matter of choice rather
>> than a matter of being trapped. And, Open Data Format legislation would
>> make it just as easy to return to your old software if you didn't like
>> the new stuff as it was to leave - assuming that your old software
>> imports the new software's data format.
>>
>> Can companies do this on their own? Sure. Software companies can
>> reverse engineer one another's data formats. But this process takes
>> months for some formats and many small software companies simply cannot
>> afford to reverse engineer all of their competitors' proprietary data
>> formats in a timely manner. This hurts consumers as much as it hurts the
>> small software developer.
>>
>> Open Data Format legislation measn lower software prices, greater choice
>> and data that is really yours.
>>
>> What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of Open Data Format
>> legislation?
>>
>> Your opoinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> jim
>>
>
> I see big government stifling creativity and limiting competition. Let's
> see... legislate that Oracle, SQL Server, Access, DB2, SyBase, MySQL etc.
> must all store data in the same format? Heh...

No. Not in the same format. Companies will be free to store data in any
format that they choose. This will ensure that innovation in data storage
techniques continues.

They are only required to publish their data storage formats so the
customers can easily move to another software vendor if they so choose.

Dat can still be encrypted with a user supplied password and strong
encryption to keep data private even though the data format is published.
Then the user would have to supply his/her password to import the data into
another application.

> How would such "legislation" govern software produced in countries not
> agreeing with such legislation, or are you also proposing some form of
> planet government?

Only for software sold in the US. I am quite sure that the EU would follow
suit quickly and other would follow htme when they saw the price of software
drop and the quality of software rise.

Thanks for your comments!

jim

jim wrote:
> "PvdG42" <pvdg@toadstool.edu> wrote in message
> news:ehUnzR0BIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> "jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
>> news:ksmNi.51$aa.7@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>> Imagine a world where great software is cheap, where software is truly
>>> innovative and software companies compete based entirely on how well
>>> their software serves your needs and increases your productivity.
>>> Wouldn't that be great?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, we don't have that now. We have a world where your data
>>> (in the format that you created it) is not always yours to do with as you
>>> please. In many instances, you cannot easily take most data (from large
>>> software vendors) to another application that may have better features or
>>> a simpler UI or just be a better value for your money.
>>>
>>> Simply put...your data isn't always yours when its trapped in a
>>> proprietary data format. The reason your data gets stuck in a single
>>> vendor's application is the use of proprietary data formats.
>>>
>>> For instance, when you design a widget using one CAD application, you may
>>> not be able take it to another CAD application and open or modify it.
>>> When you want to move from one accounting application to another, it is
>>> nearly impossible to transfer all of your data from company A's software
>>> to company B's software. Even when you want to open an Excel spreadsheet
>>> in OpenOffice - you'll hit hard times if you placed macros in the
>>> original Excel spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> It is my position that a person's data is just that - their data. They
>>> should be able to take it wherever they want and use it in any
>>> application that they want. People should not have their data held
>>> hostage and be forced to continue supporting companies that charge
>>> excessive fees for software, fail to innovate or are moving away from the
>>> customers' goals.
>>>
>>> There is a simple fix. There is a simple way to allow small software
>>> firms to enter established markets and compete with larger, established
>>> software companies. There is a cost effective way to do this so that
>>> businesse and individuals can enjoy the benefits of lower cost, higher
>>> quality software in a more competitive marketplace.
>>>
>>> That simple fix is Open Data Format legislation. Simply put, Open Data
>>> Format legislation would require anyome distributing software to openly
>>> publish the data format that the users' data is stored in 30 days prior
>>> to software distribution. This would apply to new releases as well as
>>> any software updates or patches that changed the data format. In the
>>> case of emergency patches, the new data format should be sent along with
>>> the emergency patch.
>>>
>>> What would Open Data Format legislation accomplish that is not available
>>> now? Open Data Format legislation would level the software playing field
>>> for bright, innovative software engineers and small companies to compete
>>> with larger established companies based on the quality of the software
>>> product. Open Data Format legislation would encourage more software
>>> competition and would lower prices for such things as office
>>> applications. Open Data Format legislation would mandate a new era of
>>> data sharing that not even the OOXML could touch as Open Data Format
>>> legislation would require the publication of all data formats before or
>>> at release - making it easy for one company to import data written using
>>> any other software product.
>>>
>>> Using different apps - or even OSs would be a matter of choice rather
>>> than a matter of being trapped. And, Open Data Format legislation would
>>> make it just as easy to return to your old software if you didn't like
>>> the new stuff as it was to leave - assuming that your old software
>>> imports the new software's data format.
>>>
>>> Can companies do this on their own? Sure. Software companies can
>>> reverse engineer one another's data formats. But this process takes
>>> months for some formats and many small software companies simply cannot
>>> afford to reverse engineer all of their competitors' proprietary data
>>> formats in a timely manner. This hurts consumers as much as it hurts the
>>> small software developer.
>>>
>>> Open Data Format legislation measn lower software prices, greater choice
>>> and data that is really yours.
>>>
>>> What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of Open Data Format
>>> legislation?
>>>
>>> Your opoinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>> I see big government stifling creativity and limiting competition. Let's
>> see... legislate that Oracle, SQL Server, Access, DB2, SyBase, MySQL etc.
>> must all store data in the same format? Heh...
>
> No. Not in the same format. Companies will be free to store data in any
> format that they choose. This will ensure that innovation in data storage
> techniques continues.
>
> They are only required to publish their data storage formats so the
> customers can easily move to another software vendor if they so choose.
>
> Dat can still be encrypted with a user supplied password and strong
> encryption to keep data private even though the data format is published.
> Then the user would have to supply his/her password to import the data into
> another application.
>
>> How would such "legislation" govern software produced in countries not
>> agreeing with such legislation, or are you also proposing some form of
>> planet government?
>
> Only for software sold in the US. I am quite sure that the EU would follow
> suit quickly and other would follow htme when they saw the price of software
> drop and the quality of software rise.
>
> Thanks for your comments!
>
> jim
>
>

So how do new technologies get written if there is not monetary value
assigned to the reward of finding/developing a better technology.

Its like asking a scientist to find a cure for something, and expect
them never to get paid even when they do find a cure.
Finding nothing - gets them nothing.

If you write a program - and its garbage, it wont sell... your time and
effort is lost. The government doesn't send you a "you tried check".
your neighbor writes a program - it sells - he wins - his time and
effort pays off.

A company does enough due diligence to buy the "best" software that fits
their needs when they purchase the software. If they need to pay a
little for some "exports" or whatever...thats part of doing business as
well.
Time is money - for everyone.

I don't agree with your idea, just in the way that as well... in this
market, good ideas - and first come first serve pays off. - Not the
second or third who take your ideas and sell them with some new features.

George Forman's grill was first ( not sure if it was )...but it was the
first major grill...and he got paid first before all the knockoffs came out.

M.

<snip>

> No. Not in the same format. Companies will be free to store data in any
> format that they choose. This will ensure that innovation in data storage
> techniques continues.
>
> They are only required to publish their data storage formats so the
> customers can easily move to another software vendor if they so choose.

How do we NOT already have this ability - at least for the most part - with
the ability for software to export data to one or more common formats?
Consider MS Word, Access, Outlook, etc - they can export and import to/from
*many* common formats - even to proprietary of their competitors.

In the cases of the applications I just listed (there could have been many
many more), the data is freely moved to a competing product. If the
competitor is incapable of reading one format, then the user can jolly well
export to another format that the competing product is capable of reading.
Yes, data can be lost when going to a specific competitor, but that's
because the competing product is inferior... at least for now. Plus, MS is
publishing their document formats

Furthermore, the arrival and wide adoption of XML across the industry has
made many parts of your vision a reality - and without legislation. Consider
the following quote from this link:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338205.aspx

<quote>
The new formats improve file and data management, data recovery, and
interoperability with line-of-business systems. They extend what is possible
with the binary files of earlier versions. Any application that supports XML
can access and work with data in the new file format. The application does
not need to be part of the Microsoft Office system or even a Microsoft
product. Users can also use standard transformations to extract or repurpose
the data.
</quote>

It appears that the open competitive market has driven much of what you seem
to think will come about only with legislation.

The reason that XML has been so widely adopted in the past few years is
exactly because companies WANT to exchange data between both applications
and platforms. And this all happened without legislation.

I'd be interested on your thoughts on the above. What does your proposed
legislation do that isn't already met with XML and it's wide adoption - even
by MS as exemplified by the rationalle for MS to go to an open document
format for MS Office as described in the link above?

Remember there are two basic forms of motivation - "the carrot and the
stick." The open market and the money it can provide constitutes the
carrot; legislation the stick. If you know anything about the psychology of
behavior modification, these terms are more specifically communicated as
"reward" and "punishment". Research has demonstrated overwhelmingly that
punishment is a far less effective behavior modification tool than reward
is. In particular, punishment works ONLY as long as the punisher is present,
while rewarding good behavior results in lasting change long after the
reward is no longer present. Open markets and the possibility of large sums
of money and what that money can do for the people working for a company and
their families... what do you think that is - a punishment or a reward? Now,
what about legislation and the chilling effects it can have (i.e., if you do
not comply with the law, you will be subjected to fines, jail, loss of
business license, etc) - punishment or reward?

-Bob