Finally, Lizard in Desert Setting - Graphics

Hey Mark, I think you are overworking this to death. Living in the desert, I
think you just don't realize that most of us have no clue at ALL what it
looks like close up, other then what we've seen on TV, and in stores.

I've seen pictures of mountains thast look like little gently rolling hills,
because there is no perspective reference. In fact many pictures I take are
with a macro, and I'll "fake" a large terrain from a small cliff or
outcropping when hiking in the mountains.

And other's opinions are just that.. only opinions. Your pic is complete
when *you* decide you've achieved your goal.. not when WE think you have.
Since everyone has a slightly different picture, if we were all rendering
our favorite version of the image, there would be hundereds of them, and you
wouldn;t like 99% of them for some reason or other, because you've actually
seen the location and animal in question, while we are just guessing based
on perceived images.

BTW of topic, but how large poly wise if your train engine? did you ever do
any other cars for it, and did you ever rig it for animation?

Is it uv mapped?

--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)
Gareee's Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm

LOL! I'm getting a kick out of this discussion Mark.

I'll be stright forward with you. I currently live in Ohio. I've never been
to a desert. I had no idea that those were pieces of cactus. When I look at
the image I have no idea how small the lizard is. I related the grass to
tall grass that typically grows on the beaches of the "great lakes". I
really had no concept of the size of the rocks. I don't think this is a
particular problem with your rendering...its just that I can't relate to the
locale.

As a matter of interest I recall hearing about early explorers who couldn't
relate to the depth of the Grand Canyon. Until they were able to see
something familiar to them, next to the large rocks in the bottom of the
canyon did they finally realized that what they thought were small rocks
were actually very huge boulders.

I'm interested in knowing if the desert sand is ultra fine or if it is
granular like beach sand I'm used to?

In my limited experience with close-up photography using a relatively
inexpensive digital camera, I have a very shallow DOF when shooting small
objects. I think that what you said about not seeing much of the surrounding
is probably very accurate. When I've shot photos of small critters from far
away usually I have to point the critter out to whoever is viewing the
photo.

Tore

"Mark Dunakin" <md@md-arts.com> wrote in message
news:YfuQe.10166$Us5.5690@fed1read02...
> James Willmott wrote:
>
> > Mark Dunakin wrote:
> >
> >> No offence meant to you or anyone, but sheesh, what other scale can
> >> you have other then to have a cacus RIGHT NEXT to the rocks!
> >
> >
> > I've seen cacti from over 3 metres high to ones just 3 inches. I've
> > got no idea how big that particular cactus is... you obviously know
> > because you live there.
>
> Well, the point was, you asked if they were mountains or what.
> That's what set me off.
> Cuz it's like, come one, you can SEE the grass growing right there in
> front of them with the cactus next to the rocks.
>
> > I knew they were rocks, I still don't fully understand how big
> > everything is. It's a great image, you've done a nice job on
> > everything. Is that better?
>
> Well, that wasn't what I had read from your post earlier.
> I thought you asked if they were mountains or rocks?
> When to me, it's quite obvious they're rocks.
> So, my appologies if I missunderstood you, but I could swear that's what
> I read?
>
> >> Maybe everyone saved up crits (really, really REALLY petty crits to
> >> boot) just for me? LOL
> >
> > Somehow I doubt that.
> >
> >> I'm kidding people, so you all need to lighten up as much as you all
> >> seem to think "I" need to lighten up.
> >
> I SAID I was just kidding
>
> > If it wasn't any good, then I wouldn't expect anyone to say it was...
>
> That was part of what bumbed me out, was seeing how many hundred peoples
> there were taht had viewed the images,
> and I got like one or two comments from SpinQuad and only one was a
> good comment.
> Makes you feel like your work is crap, yet I see people going bonkers
> over a cube with good radiosity lighting on it.
> Pretty hard to compete with that LOL
>
> > And I have had work critiqued in the past, I studied architecture. It
> > wasn't any nicer then either. Probably worse, since you have to
> > justify yourself then and there in front of a group of about twenty
> > other people all picking holes in your designs.
>
> I can feel that feeling all the way over here!
> I wouldn't want to be the one in that spot, so I can feel for what you
> would have to go through on that sort of stuff.
> But, I too have had my loads of shares of the same things, but luckily,
> I never have to actually meet most of them.
> Everything I do now a days is over the net and phone lines.
> Just the way I like it too
> But, the clients can be just as harsh as in real face to face situations.
>
> >> Here's what I'll do, for all of you critiquers out there.
> >> I'll still post up images, but I won't, as you put it, "blow a fuse"
> >> over lame critiques anymore.
> >> Sound good?
> >> I'll just know from now on, there's just no pleasing the masses.
> >> Which, BTW, is the whole reason people post their images, is to show
> >> them off.
> >
> > ...and to improve ourselves as artists...
>
> Duh.
> Yeah, I knew that too, and thought I should of stated that when I
> posted, as I figured
> you'd point that out, but was hoping you got my point without me having
> to get into every detail?
> And from reading this, you must have gotten my point, I assume?
> In otherwords, you know what I meant.
> Even those who are going just for the critiques, it isn't so that later
> they can hide their work, now is it?
> No.
> It's so they can show it later on or when ever, which is what I mean by,
> I think you get my point?
>
> >> Which is contrary to the bit about expecting crits when you post,
> >> though that IS to be expected.
> >> But, if people wanted to just get critisisms, they wouldn't even
> >> bother posting.
> >
> > Actually, if they did want crits, they WOULD post.
>
> And again, duh, I got that and figured you got what my point was.
>
> > I didn't know about the replies off Spinquad et. al.
>
> Well, the most came from CG-Talk, as I only got like a couple or so
> replies from SQ.
>
> >> I would of thought I could of gotten at least a few comments, like
> >> wow!, that Sas turned out good or something?
> >> Considering that all the cactus spines are all Sas, besides the grass.
> >> I never even see anyone else here do much of anything with Sas, other
> >> then the standard stuff.
> >
> > We didn't know that, it's more impressive now that we do.
>
> I could of sworn that I wrote at the very top of the thread:
> LW8.3 + Sas
> Before I even went into any of the other info.
> But, I guess I should of stated what I used Sas for, but I didn't think
> of that.
> Sorry. Just thought it was obvious, but if it wasn't then cool, as that
> WOULD be a compliment.
>
> > I'm happy, I'm just annoyed that you chose to get aggressive when I
> > was asking a simple question, 'tis all.
>
> I wasn't being aggresive, just annoyed.
> I got complaints about different things.
> When I fixed them, then people still complained about either the same
> things or some other things.
> And some or most of the supposed critiques, were more like nit picky
> little things with no mention of any of the things I did right!
> You (not meaning you personally, but you in a general senseof people)
> can't just keep
> critiqueing something without also giving out some comments on what a
> person is doing right?
> It's not helpfull at all.
> It's just bashing at that point.
> When I see AND critique someone's art work, I always FIRST say what I
> like about the image
> and THEN I go on to make my critiques and I try to do them in a helpfull
> mannor that doesn't just say,
> it's too dark or whatever, but I try (if I can that is) to suggest what
> they might try doing to remedy the area of critiques.
>
> > You're annoyed that all the critiques seem to be about the DOF. Maybe
> > the DOF is the only thing wrong with it. Did you ever consider that?
>
> And THAT was one of the annoying things from this whole posting.
> I posted up BOTH versions and no one even acted like I posted an image
> with NO DOF in it, which I did.
> So yes, I DID think of that and YES, that was my problem area, but I
> didn't get ANY help with it at all!
> No suggestions or anything, just it's too blurry or too much DOF (which
> I completely dissagree with, but whatever)
> or not enough DOF or the lizard doesn't look right, even though I
> already posted that I couldn't fix that right now, as he's frozen.
> I have never really worked with realistic DOF before, so it's all new to
me.
> Helpfull comments would of been much more appreciated then just generic
> comments.
> You know, the one's I already have mentioned, like, the image is too
blurry.
> The shadows aren't dark enough.
> So on and so on, blah, blah, blah.
> Nothing helpfull.
> Like Mark, what's your lighting setup?
> Maybe you could try this or that?
> Mark, what are you using for you DOF?
> Maybe you should try this instead?
> Isn't that part of that whole, "learning bit" that you brought up about
> posting one's work?
>
> > Here's another one. No harm done.
>
> And mine back at ya
> And please don't think I was being aggressive,
> I was just annoyed, just as you were.
> Nothing more nothing less.
> I just felt like I was repeting myself and getting nowhere.
> And reworking my artwork and getting nowhere and
> no help in site to go along with those critiques.
> That's annoying.
>
> And just so you know, I originally had planned to make the scene further
> out,
> so people could see some scale to the scene, but the problem with that
> was, then
> you wouldn't be able to see the lizard, who of course is the star of
> that whole scene,
> and wanting to show off my texturing job and modeling skills with it.
> Unfortunately though, all that got totally lost in all the problems
> with the rest of the scene that everyone seems to have.
>
> .........................................................md
>
> --
> --
> Check out my Tutorials:
>
> MD arts
> Mark Dunakin
> md@md-arts.com
> http://www.md-arts.com

Gareee© wrote:

>And other's opinions are just that.. only opinions. Your pic is complete
>when *you* decide you've achieved your goal.. not when WE think you have.
>Since everyone has a slightly different picture, if we were all rendering
>our favorite version of the image, there would be hundereds of them, and you
>wouldn;t like 99% of them for some reason or other, because you've actually
>seen the location and animal in question, while we are just guessing based
>on perceived images.
>
>
Agreed and thanx
And yeah, I needed to get away from the lizard scene.
I had started it over two years ago and wanted to just be done with it,
but it looks like that won't happen any time soon LOL
I'll post up eventually a fav shot of it to my site and leave it at that.
Maybe if I think of a better scene to display him in, then I'll give
that a try.

>BTW of topic, but how large poly wise if your train engine? did you ever do
>any other cars for it, and did you ever rig it for animation?
>
>Is it uv mapped?
>
>
And, are you kidding!!!! LOL
I actually THOUHGT ONCE about UV mapping that thing,
and within a few minutes gave that idea up in a heart beat.
Far too complicated.
Never got it completely rigged, but WILL do it when I get back to it.
I have most of the IK setup for it, just not the main problem that
everyone has
with steam trains engines, and that's the way the main piston rod
interacts with the rest of the motion.
I never could learn Worely's Linker plugin, no matter how many times I
tried that thing, so I just gave up on ever learning it.
I'm either too dense or stupid ot that thing is too complicated or not
enough documentation for it or something?
But, all the rest of the rigging is all set up and looks cool when it
rolls down the track.

--
--
Check out my Tutorials:

MD arts
Mark Dunakin
md@md-arts.com
http://www.md-arts.com

"Mark Dunakin" <md@md-arts.com> wrote in message
news:KwLQe.11085$Us5.7735@fed1read02...

> I actually THOUHGT ONCE about UV mapping that thing,
> and within a few minutes gave that idea up in a heart beat.
> Far too complicated.
> Never got it completely rigged, but WILL do it when I get back to it.
> I have most of the IK setup for it, just not the main problem that
> everyone has
> with steam trains engines, and that's the way the main piston rod
> interacts with the rest of the motion.
> I never could learn Worely's Linker plugin, no matter how many times I
> tried that thing, so I just gave up on ever learning it.
> I'm either too dense or stupid ot that thing is too complicated or not
> enough documentation for it or something?
> But, all the rest of the rigging is all set up and looks cool when it
> rolls down the track.

Ah... objects need to be uv mapped to be sold as poser content, and I
figured it might be a good product for you to sell, and put together easily.

I'm finding now, I think of uv mapping before I even begin building some
things, because I can start with a primitive, uv map it easily, and then
warp it into the shape I need easier the trying to uv map it after the fact.
(Teeth in a head are a good example.. uv map them first, and then bend them
into the mouth cavity shape.)


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)
Gareee's Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm

Gareee© wrote:

>Ah... objects need to be uv mapped to be sold as poser content, and I
>figured it might be a good product for you to sell, and put together easily.
>
>I'm finding now, I think of uv mapping before I even begin building some
>things, because I can start with a primitive, uv map it easily, and then
>warp it into the shape I need easier the trying to uv map it after the fact.
>(Teeth in a head are a good example.. uv map them first, and then bend them
>into the mouth cavity shape.)
>
>
Well, just so you know, it WILL eventually all be UV mapped and also
completely finished.
But, if you might recall, though it was a zillion years ago that I
mentioned this, but, this project
really never was meant to be a finished project, per se, as it's my own
"get away from other
things and exscape from the world" kind of model where it's always going
to be a WIP.
I can't have a real train set and can't afford one, so I decided to
slowly, when ever I feel like it,
build my own train set in LW and just slowly work on it whenever I get
back in the mood.

Quite a few people have requested that I sell my lizard as a Poser object,
but I need someone to do the conversion for me.
Of course, anyone who did, would of course get the lizard for free.
AND, all rigged with bones and weightmaps and everything,
which it currently is all setup like that.
So, I'm looking to see if I can find anyone who would be interested in
helping
me that way, since there now is no way I can afford to buy Poser 6
anymore LOL

As for the train, it's actually nearly finished.
I just need to finish the tender for it and then connect all the
parts into one nice piece for UV mapping and it'll be ready to go.
I'm actually pretty good at UV mapping, so that's not to big of a problem,
it was the way I had built the thing that was and is the problem.

All will and can be worked out later down the road...............md

--
--
Check out my Tutorials:

MD arts
Mark Dunakin
md@md-arts.com
http://www.md-arts.com

"Mark Dunakin" <md@md-arts.com> wrote in message
news:9zNQe.11421$Us5.11398@fed1read02...
> Gareee© wrote:

> Well, just so you know, it WILL eventually all be UV mapped and also
> completely finished.

Nah... I know of one guy who's remodeled the movie ST enterprise like 5
times now.. it's a labor of love, and even when its complete, you'll think
of something else, and want to improve upon it.

(The train from Wild Wild West would be cool...)

> I can't have a real train set and can't afford one, so I decided to
> slowly, when ever I feel like it,
> build my own train set in LW and just slowly work on it whenever I get
> back in the mood.

Hmmm maybe the vue 5 ecosystems can help you out a lot on the project?

> Quite a few people have requested that I sell my lizard as a Poser object,
> but I need someone to do the conversion for me.
> Of course, anyone who did, would of course get the lizard for free.
> AND, all rigged with bones and weightmaps and everything,
> which it currently is all setup like that.
> So, I'm looking to see if I can find anyone who would be interested in
> helping
> me that way, since there now is no way I can afford to buy Poser 6 anymore
> LOL

I can check around with trusted people, if you like. The weightmaps and
rigging will literally have to be tossed out, and he'll have to be rerigged
in poser itself, or by hand. And sometimes rigging can take a lot more time
then modelling and textureing!

Is he uv mapped and textured, or proceedurally textured? If he's uv mapped,
you can bake that, and it can be the texture base for poser. (He'll also
need a inner mouth and teeth, if he doesn't have them.

I'd offer, but am juggling 3 projects right now, and that's two more then I
prefer. I've found I'm more productive when I work on one thing at a time,
instead of bouncing around and forgetting things.
>
> As for the train, it's actually nearly finished.
> I just need to finish the tender for it and then connect all the
> parts into one nice piece for UV mapping and it'll be ready to go.
> I'm actually pretty good at UV mapping, so that's not to big of a problem,
> it was the way I had built the thing that was and is the problem.

I need to practice more uv mapping.. it's always a hurdle to overcome.

--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)
Gareee's Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm

Gareee© wrote:

>>Nah... I know of one guy who's remodeled the movie ST enterprise like 5
>>times now.. it's a labor of love, and even when its complete, you'll think
>>of something else, and want to improve upon it.
>>
>>
True, true.
And really, that IS the whole point of that whole train bit, is a
forever on going project.

>>(The train from Wild Wild West would be cool...)
>>
>>
Haven't seen that one, and I tend to prefer to stay away from famous
objects anyway.
I mean, familiar objects, as they tend to be done more then obscure objects.
In fact, that was why I made that lizard, because I was getting tired of
the
same old T-Rex's everyone was making back when I started that thing.
How many rex's do we need already!? LOL
No one ever makes off the wall dinos.
I think the best off the wall dino type animal I've seen was that killer
under water
creature someone made a while back, like a year or two ago, with all
those teeth.
But for me, I want to at least finish the engine, but I think I'm just
gonna have to bite the bullet
and go ahead and fake all the rest of it, which I really didn't want to
do, but I have NO MORE refference
material to work from. So it'll have to just be from my imagination and
not based on what the thing really
looks like, which I really wanted to do. But I can't tell how the wheels
are connected to the springs
or any of the details and all that, so faking, here I come!
I'm working from a drawing from a model railroading magazine.
But I want to get past the train part for a while and work on something
FUN, like some tressels
Namely this one, for starters:
http://www.sdrm.org/gallery/sda/gorge/
This was what I wanted Vue for, BTW

>>I can't have a real train set and can't afford one, so I decided to
>>slowly, when ever I feel like it,
>>build my own train set in LW and just slowly work on it whenever I get
>>back in the mood.
>>
>>
>Hmmm maybe the vue 5 ecosystems can help you out a lot on the project?
>
>
Exactly

>I can check around with trusted people, if you like. The weightmaps and
>rigging will literally have to be tossed out, and he'll have to be rerigged
>in poser itself, or by hand. And sometimes rigging can take a lot more time
>then modelling and textureing!
>
>
Ohhhh.... I never knew that.
I was always under the impression that you could Import right into Poser a
complete rigged chacter, but I guess that shows how much I know about Poser.
The last time I used Poser was the very first version, which I just
donated to a charity place.

>Is he uv mapped and textured, or proceedurally textured? If he's uv mapped,
>you can bake that, and it can be the texture base for poser. (He'll also
>need a inner mouth and teeth, if he doesn't have them.
>
>
He already is completely UV mapped through and through, including the
inner mouth.
And he has no teeth, just a toung. They just eat ants They LOVE ants,
in fact!
They're imune to the ant's sting (poison) also.
The problem with his UV map, if this makes any difference, I don't
know?, is that I used Atlas mapping.
Was no problem for me like it is for others, because I used Deep Paint
3D which makes painting on an object a breeze.
I never baked a UV'd object, so I don't know how to do that?
Is it hard to do? Will it matter that the UV maps are made from Atlas maps?
Or does the baking make everything all nice and clean?
Guess I'd need to read up on that, cuz I DO want to get rid of that
lizard, one way or another.
I "WAS" going to give him away, untill several people in the Vue forums
and other places, including here,
suggested that I sell him as a Poser object, so I decided that maybe
that's a better plan?

>I'd offer, but am juggling 3 projects right now, and that's two more then I
>prefer. I've found I'm more productive when I work on one thing at a time,
>instead of bouncing around and forgetting things.
>
>
That's OK, I think I know of some people who'd love to do the
convertions and all that.
And I know how you are, you NEVER stop with those killer Poser creations!

>>As for the train, it's actually nearly finished.
>>I just need to finish the tender for it and then connect all the
>>parts into one nice piece for UV mapping and it'll be ready to go.
>>I'm actually pretty good at UV mapping, so that's not to big of a problem,
>>it was the way I had built the thing that was and is the problem.
>>
>>
>
>I need to practice more uv mapping.. it's always a hurdle to overcome.
>
>
Well, now I would do a lot of things differently with reguards to UV
mapping, that's for sure.
I thought I knew what I was doing before, but unwrapping, "proper"
unwrapping,
is far more important then anything else, as far as I'm concerned.
And I didn't even attempt to do that with that lizard, which really
would of been
quite easy to do, since he's just a flat lizard with not much weird
shape to it.
The train will be a bit more complicated to figure out though.

--
--
Check out my Tutorials:

MD arts
Mark Dunakin
md@md-arts.com
http://www.md-arts.com

Hanson wrote:

>LOL! I'm getting a kick out of this discussion Mark.
>
>
LOL, yeah, thanx !

>I'll be stright forward with you. I currently live in Ohio. I've never been
>to a desert. I had no idea that those were pieces of cactus. When I look at
>the image I have no idea how small the lizard is. I related the grass to
>tall grass that typically grows on the beaches of the "great lakes". I
>really had no concept of the size of the rocks. I don't think this is a
>particular problem with your rendering...its just that I can't relate to the
>locale.
>
>
Yeah, I'm beginning to understand that fact, from the other posts,... to
late of course LOL
Next time, I'll through in some ants for him to eat or something, maybe
some leaves on the ground,
though I wouldn't know what kind, since there aren't any leaves around
that place I have him at.
Just cactus and little shrubberies and maybe some small flowers, which
those might had scale to the scene?

>As a matter of interest I recall hearing about early explorers who couldn't
>relate to the depth of the Grand Canyon. Until they were able to see
>something familiar to them, next to the large rocks in the bottom of the
>canyon did they finally realized that what they thought were small rocks
>were actually very huge boulders.
>
>
I can relate to that, as the Carriso Gorge is something like that.
Pictures especially do no justice for that area at all, since in real life
it's far more overwhelming then the images pertay the place as.

>I'm interested in knowing if the desert sand is ultra fine or if it is
>granular like beach sand I'm used to?
>
>
Actually, it ranges from dust to fairly large granuals, like the size of
rock salt.
You know, about a 16th to and 8th inch in size.

>In my limited experience with close-up photography using a relatively
>inexpensive digital camera, I have a very shallow DOF when shooting small
>objects. I think that what you said about not seeing much of the surrounding
>is probably very accurate. When I've shot photos of small critters from far
>away usually I have to point the critter out to whoever is viewing the
>photo.
>
>
Exactly.
Take a look at these real fotos and you can not only see the size of the
sand.
http://www.md-arts.com/OneAndHalf_Inch_Catapillar.jpg
http://www.md-arts.com/FingureCatapillar.jpg
And this LOL which is about 3 or 4 inches long
http://www.md-arts.com/CoyotePoop2.jpg

Can't find my DOF fotos I took ages ago, will have to dig those up later.
But they really don't let you see any of the background, as they are
sooo blured out.

....................md


--
--
Check out my Tutorials:

MD arts
Mark Dunakin
md@md-arts.com
http://www.md-arts.com

"Mark Dunakin" <md@md-arts.com> wrote in message
news:bd2Re.14396$Us5.3898@fed1read02...

>>I can check around with trusted people, if you like. The weightmaps and
>>rigging will literally have to be tossed out, and he'll have to be
>>rerigged in poser itself, or by hand. And sometimes rigging can take a
>>lot more time then modelling and textureing!
>>
> Ohhhh.... I never knew that.
> I was always under the impression that you could Import right into Poser a
> complete rigged chacter, but I guess that shows how much I know about
> Poser.
> The last time I used Poser was the very first version, which I just
> donated to a charity place.

And of course you would do that JUST before they announce a legacy upgrade
to P6 from any version for $99... bad luck..

>>Is he uv mapped and textured, or proceedurally textured? If he's uv
>>mapped, you can bake that, and it can be the texture base for poser.
>>(He'll also need a inner mouth and teeth, if he doesn't have them.
>>
> Was no problem for me like it is for others, because I used Deep Paint 3D
> which makes painting on an object a breeze.
> I never baked a UV'd object, so I don't know how to do that?

In layout one of the surface options is to "bake" a texture.. it actually
makes a texture map you can apply to a uv mapped surface, but it sounds like
you already have a painted one.

> Is it hard to do? Will it matter that the UV maps are made from Atlas
> maps?
> Or does the baking make everything all nice and clean?

Nah it doesn;t matter at all, but you usually want to make sure you do;t hav
evisible seams, or that they are minimized.

> Guess I'd need to read up on that, cuz I DO want to get rid of that
> lizard, one way or another.
> I "WAS" going to give him away, untill several people in the Vue forums
> and other places, including here,
> suggested that I sell him as a Poser object, so I decided that maybe
> that's a better plan?

I'm not sure what the market is for a small poseble lizard figure, but it
can't hurt to go through th eleanring experience.

> And I know how you are, you NEVER stop with those killer Poser creations!

Acytually, I took most of the last month off, after doing the Grifin Morph
set. that was a lot of work, and I wantes to hone my modelling and uv
mapping skills a little more. I have a big enough catalog now that I can
afford to not work for 3 or 4 weeks, which is actually pretty cool! Course I
ended up doing all sorts of varying house chores, and I still need to chop
enough wood for the winter yet. (Waiting for cooler weather)


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)
Gareee's Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm