Pages, applications, etc. (was: Re: transparent redirection)

Anthony Jones wrote:
> "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
>> [...]
>> In the example that I've been using, "members.asp" is active until
>> the user logs out, but dozens of ASP scripts can execute during that
>> session, even if only a few HTML pages are rendered. It's confusing
>> and not very useful to think that there is only one "page" called
>> "members.asp", though that seems to be the way that some are using
>> the term. I could see "members.asp" as a "meta-script", and have
>> instead called it an "application", as that is what it would be in
>> other programming contexts. ;-)
>>
>
> What do you by ' "members.asp" is active" ??
>
That it is awaiting user action.

> Once a request is complete the script context is reset. Apart from
> the values stored in the application and session objects there is no
> script that remains 'active'.
>
Since a While/Wend or some other on-going background activity of a script
appears to provide exceptions to the above statement, your usage seems to be
a distinction without a difference. Could you clarify?

> Are you saying that multiple requests from the same client to
> members.asp can result in various different responses?
>
Yes.

> Would this
> variation be a result of FORM posts or various values on the
> querystring?
>
Could be. From my perspective, "members.asp" is in a sense a form (though
not an HTML FORM), as it presents options to the user that determine which
ASP files or VB/JScript Functions will be run.

--
Neil

"Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
news:%231OzAZI%23IHA.4156@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Anthony Jones wrote:
> > "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
> >> [...]
> >> In the example that I've been using, "members.asp" is active until
> >> the user logs out, but dozens of ASP scripts can execute during that
> >> session, even if only a few HTML pages are rendered. It's confusing
> >> and not very useful to think that there is only one "page" called
> >> "members.asp", though that seems to be the way that some are using
> >> the term. I could see "members.asp" as a "meta-script", and have
> >> instead called it an "application", as that is what it would be in
> >> other programming contexts. ;-)
> >>
> >
> > What do you by ' "members.asp" is active" ??
> >
> That it is awaiting user action.
>

Bizarre. In that sense then all scripts are always active, since any can be
invoked by a user action.

> > Once a request is complete the script context is reset. Apart from
> > the values stored in the application and session objects there is no
> > script that remains 'active'.
> >
> Since a While/Wend or some other on-going background activity of a script
> appears to provide exceptions to the above statement, your usage seems to
be
> a distinction without a difference. Could you clarify?
>
> > Are you saying that multiple requests from the same client to
> > members.asp can result in various different responses?
> >
> Yes.
>
> > Would this
> > variation be a result of FORM posts or various values on the
> > querystring?
> >
> Could be.

Well is it or isn't? You should know!

>From my perspective, "members.asp" is in a sense a form (though
> not an HTML FORM), as it presents options to the user that determine which
> ASP files or VB/JScript Functions will be run.
>

--
Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET

"Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
news:ugLDxRV%23IHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Hi Anthony,
>
> First, thank you, Bob, and others for providing good insights and
solutions
> to specific issues involving ASP programming (as well as the other groups
> that you participate in). I respect your collective knowledge and have
> learned a lot by reading your thorough replies to others.
>
> I started a new topic because I am trying to align ASP terminology with my
> understanding of other programming languages,

ASP isn't a language that is perhaps a first alignment needed.

> not trying to specifcally
> solve transparent redirection. In that light, I've asked a few questions
> such as what delineates a "page" in the ASP way of looking at things, why
is
> it not appropriate to call a script that completely controls a user's
> experience on a site an "application", etc.

Because no one else understands what it is you are talking about. In IIS
an application is created by specifying that a directory is an application.
This implies that there is a set of scripts that form an application.

By calling a single asp file an application you impede your ability to
communicate with others about ASP issues.


>These questions arose out of
> what seems to be an inconsistent use of these concepts both in the ASP
> documentation that I've read and in this newsgroup.
>
> I've also tried to keep my examples general, and it seems that this has
lead
> to some misunderstanding.
>
> Anthony Jones wrote:
> > "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
> >> Anthony Jones wrote:
> >>> "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
> >>>> [...]
> >>>> In the example that I've been using, "members.asp" is active until
> >>>> the user logs out, but dozens of ASP scripts can execute during
> >>>> that session, even if only a few HTML pages are rendered. It's
> >>>> confusing and not very useful to think that there is only one
> >>>> "page" called "members.asp", though that seems to be the way that
> >>>> some are using the term. I could see "members.asp" as a
> >>>> "meta-script", and have instead called it an "application", as
> >>>> that is what it would be in other programming contexts. ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> What do you by ' "members.asp" is active" ??
> >>>
> >> That it is awaiting user action.
> >>
> >
> > Bizarre. In that sense then all scripts are always active, since any
> > can be invoked by a user action.
> >
> I don't think that "all scripts are always active"... but my use did
> differentiate between "active" and "running". That is why I asked the
> question in response to your comment:
>

Ok there is no such distinction between active and running. A script runs
in response to a request. IOW there is no such thing as an active script
(as opposed to an inactive one) there are only running scripts.


> >>> Once a request is complete the script context is reset. Apart from
> >>> the values stored in the application and session objects there is no
> >>> script that remains 'active'.
> >>>
> >> Since a While/Wend or some other on-going background activity of a
> >> script appears to provide exceptions to the above statement, your
> >> usage seems to be a distinction without a difference. Could you
> >> clarify?
> >
> A script containing one of these conditions would be running, but aside
from
> the CPU time being consumed it may not be functionally different from
> "members.asp" awaiting user action.

A script starts as a response to a request. It may have sent some content
to client, a clever client may even have made some use of the response, a
client may take it further and close the connection. The script will
continue to run until it deems to have completed the request.

Such an approach may well improve the overall performance of an application
but it is difficult to acheive and is therefore somewhat fragile.

BTW its worth remembering that the session object can only be present in one
script context at a time. If there is some kind of background script
running for a session at the time another request associated with same
session arrives that request will be queued.

>
> Perhaps it is more correct to say that the _session_ is active, but that
> implies to me that any number of scripts could be run.

It is the session which is active. It is the session which provides the
appearance of a statefull application to the user. Yes any number of
different scripts can be run, an application is a set of scripts.

> As members.asp is the only script that can be run,

Even if the application directory only contains one asp file the application
would still be the directory containing a set of scripts (in this case a set
with 1 member).

>and it would be inappropriate to call
> members.asp a "session", this would seem to be another distinction without
a
> difference.

I can't see one any one would call any asp file a "session".

> I again apologize for any confusion created by my general answers to your
> questions. I really am only trying to get a better understanding of the
> terminolgy in the hope that I can better communicate any specific issues
> that I might have in the future.
>



--
Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET

Hi Anthony,

First, thank you, Bob, and others for providing good insights and solutions
to specific issues involving ASP programming (as well as the other groups
that you participate in). I respect your collective knowledge and have
learned a lot by reading your thorough replies to others.

I started a new topic because I am trying to align ASP terminology with my
understanding of other programming languages, not trying to specifcally
solve transparent redirection. In that light, I've asked a few questions
such as what delineates a "page" in the ASP way of looking at things, why is
it not appropriate to call a script that completely controls a user's
experience on a site an "application", etc. These questions arose out of
what seems to be an inconsistent use of these concepts both in the ASP
documentation that I've read and in this newsgroup.

I've also tried to keep my examples general, and it seems that this has lead
to some misunderstanding.

Anthony Jones wrote:
> "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
>> Anthony Jones wrote:
>>> "Neil Gould" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote in message
>>>> [...]
>>>> In the example that I've been using, "members.asp" is active until
>>>> the user logs out, but dozens of ASP scripts can execute during
>>>> that session, even if only a few HTML pages are rendered. It's
>>>> confusing and not very useful to think that there is only one
>>>> "page" called "members.asp", though that seems to be the way that
>>>> some are using the term. I could see "members.asp" as a
>>>> "meta-script", and have instead called it an "application", as
>>>> that is what it would be in other programming contexts. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> What do you by ' "members.asp" is active" ??
>>>
>> That it is awaiting user action.
>>
>
> Bizarre. In that sense then all scripts are always active, since any
> can be invoked by a user action.
>
I don't think that "all scripts are always active"... but my use did
differentiate between "active" and "running". That is why I asked the
question in response to your comment:

>>> Once a request is complete the script context is reset. Apart from
>>> the values stored in the application and session objects there is no
>>> script that remains 'active'.
>>>
>> Since a While/Wend or some other on-going background activity of a
>> script appears to provide exceptions to the above statement, your
>> usage seems to be a distinction without a difference. Could you
>> clarify?
>
A script containing one of these conditions would be running, but aside from
the CPU time being consumed it may not be functionally different from
"members.asp" awaiting user action.

Perhaps it is more correct to say that the _session_ is active, but that
implies to me that any number of scripts could be run. As members.asp is the
only script that can be run, and it would be inappropriate to call
members.asp a "session", this would seem to be another distinction without a
difference.

I again apologize for any confusion created by my general answers to your
questions. I really am only trying to get a better understanding of the
terminolgy in the hope that I can better communicate any specific issues
that I might have in the future.

Best,

Neil

Hi Anthony,

Lots of food for thought. Thanks.

I only want to clear up a couple of things that I may have stated poorly.

Anthony Jones wrote:
> It is the session which is active. It is the session which provides
> the appearance of a statefull application to the user. Yes any
> number of different scripts can be run, an application is a set of
> scripts.
>
>> As members.asp is the only script that can be run,
>
> Even if the application directory only contains one asp file the
> application would still be the directory containing a set of scripts
> (in this case a set with 1 member).
>
This is where we're going astray... "members.asp" is the only URL in the
address window during a session (a carry-over from the original topic), but
it is really one of the user interfaces, comprised of dozens of ASP files.
It is that interface that I was calling "the application" to differentiate
it from other user interfaces with the site. I understand your point that in
IIS-speak the root directory is "the application", but that still seems to
leave the collection of scripts that comprise a user interface in need of a
name.

--
Neil