Who uses Java? - Java

This is a discussion on Who uses Java? - Java ; Kenneth P. Turvey wrote: > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:50:18 +0000, Jon Harrop wrote: >> The ability to retarget makes both choices redundant because we can get >> our code running on that platform without IBM doing anything. The ...

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Who uses Java?

  1. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Kenneth P. Turvey wrote:
    > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:50:18 +0000, Jon Harrop wrote:
    >> The ability to retarget makes both choices redundant because we can get
    >> our code running on that platform without IBM doing anything. The only
    >> beneficial effects for us are secondary: if IBM build a market for their
    >> new platform then we can earn money by porting our software to it.

    >
    > Just because you can do something doesn't mean you really want to spend
    > your time that way. Java allows you to spend your time on something more
    > productive than retargeting your code and maintaining the veneer you
    > mentioned in another post. In Java you have one code base to develop and
    > maintain.


    That doesn't work in our case because our target market is programmers
    rather than end users. If we dropped support for all other languages we
    would lose everyone except Java programmers, i.e. we would lose 80% of our
    potential target market. Also, it would be extremely cumbersome to maintain
    the code as Java source rather than its high-level definition.

    --
    Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
    http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u

  2. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Jon Harrop wrote:
    > Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:
    >> Jon Harrop <usenet@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
    >>> I get the impression that many are database and XML related and few are
    >>> GUI related. That surprises me: I thought cross-platform GUIs were a
    >>> major selling point of Java.

    >> I won't pretend to know what everybody is doing, but from where I sit,
    >> the primary advantage of Java is cross-platform *server* software (i.e.
    >> J2EE servers or web containers) running on anything from low-end PC's
    >> to heavy server iron.


    > That's interesting. I hadn't thought that being cross-platform would be an
    > advantage for servers.


    Well, it can be. It can also be an advantage for developers who
    want to run the code locally on their machine. They can choose
    any OS that supports Java and do their development on that. That
    means less having to login to some server somewhere just to try
    something out. Also, if you switch architectures on a server app,
    which tends to happen over time, cross-platform Java code has
    the advantage that you do not need to do two builds of everything
    during the transition period. And if you have a lot of servers,
    or just a lot of software, the transition period can be fairly
    long in some cases.

    There are also some other reasons that Java appeals on servers.
    One is that Java makes threads and networking relatively easy.
    Another is that Java has bounds checking on arrays, no pointers,
    a bytecode verifier, and a consistent using exceptions for error
    handling, and that means that sometimes errors don't lead to the
    entire server app crashing where it would with some other
    platforms. Other languages certainly have some of these features,
    but Java has, IMHO, a good mix of them that relatively few
    other languages can match.

    - Logan

  3. Default pointers (was: Who uses Java?)

    Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> writes:
    > no pointers,


    »(...) reference values (...) are pointers«

    JLS3, 4.3.1.

    http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/t...ues.html#4.3.1


  4. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Mark Space wrote:
    > I think around 90% of all computing is large companies with database
    > work. It doesn't matter if you are programming Cobol, BASIC, C, C++,
    > Java, C# or what. That's where (approximately) 90% of the jobs are. By
    > comparison, everything else is a niche application, with the possible
    > exception of Microsoft OS and desktop applications.


    True, but there is a saying, "Serve the classes, dine with the masses. Serve
    the masses, dine with the classes." Microsoft showed that you can get rich by
    turning a million-dollar product, the computer OS, into a one-hundred dollar
    product. In fact, they made those of us who work on (multi-)million-dollar
    software projects better off - the increase in personal computers led to an
    increase in large-scale computing and the sophistication of its deployment.

    The number of customers for a million-dollar product will be much smaller than
    the number for an equivalent ten-thousand-dollar, or one-thousand-dollar
    product, to whit, custom software services. Assuming someone can figure out
    how to deliver quality custom software at a price the masses, at least the
    business masses, will accept.

    This requires a breakthrough of about 100:1 in productivity compared to how
    the large companies and government agencies do software and I.T. The trick is
    to maintain the level of stability and reliability that a slower approach is
    thought to ensure.

    Java is certainly a candidate for the kind of robust, secure and stable
    systems the big guns crave. Because of its large API and inherent basis in
    the network and concurrency, one can do a great deal without inventing a lot,
    if one invests the time to learn this massive, overwhelming API. However,
    Java has yet to bring enterprise programming to the masses, because heretofore
    Java enterprise programming was as clunky and behemoth as its results were
    reliable and scalable.

    But, lo! The new generation of Java, with yet more to learn, has grown wings,
    and learned to mix DNA with scripting and web templating. Some wizards have
    incanted, "Dependency injection!", and called forth the Spring of Nimbleness.
    JavaEE 5 has polished JSTL, EL and JSF to a high gloss, allowing rapid
    development with yet solid architecture. EJB 3 and JPA (Hibernate, OpenJPA)
    make back-end and database interaction much slicker, and disguise the worst of
    the caching and optimization issues. Glassfish, Geronimo and Glassfish are
    capable of managing the application service and PostgreSQL certainly is up to
    the database requirements.

    Since Java is now integrated with suitable frameworks from the front JSes and
    JSPs to the back JDBCs, it bids fair to become the /lingua franca/ of network
    and enterprise development down to even small or moderate-size businesses,
    i.e., everywhere. If it all doesn't turn out to be too much all at once for
    anyone to master.

    If the new nimbleness brings Java into manageability, I predict a massive
    increase in its use.

    Then there's Micro Edition ...

    _* References *_

    Java today:
    <http://java.sun.com/>
    <http://java.sun.com/javase/6/>
    <http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/Desktop/javase6/beta2.html>

    EJB 3 <http://java.sun.com/javaee/5/docs/tutorial/doc/bnblr.html>
    EL <http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/reference/techart/unifiedEL.html>
    Geronimo <http://geronimo.apache.org/>
    Glassfish <https://glassfish.dev.java.net/>
    Hibernate <http://www.hibernate.org/>
    JavaEE <http://java.sun.com/javaee/>
    JavaME <http://java.sun.com/javame/index.jsp>
    JBoss <http://labs.jboss.com/>
    JDBC <http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/database/index.jsp>
    JPA <http://java.sun.com/javaee/5/docs/tutorial/doc/bnbpy.html>
    JS <http://java.sun.com/javascript/>
    JSF <http://java.sun.com/javaee/javaserverfaces/>
    JSP <http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/>
    JSTL <http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/jstl/>
    OpenJPA <http://openjpa.apache.org/>
    PostgreSQL <http://www.postgresql.org/>
    PostgreSQL JDBC <http://jdbc.postgresql.org/>
    Spring <http://www.springframework.org/>

    IDEs:
    Eclipse <http://www.eclipse.org/>
    NetBeans <http://www.netbeans.org/>

    --
    Lew

  5. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Jon Harrop wrote:
    > Arne VajhĂžj wrote:
    >> Jon Harrop wrote:
    >>> Mark Thornton wrote:
    >>>> In the server world, non x86 CPUs still exist. A Java app can run
    >>>> unchanged on any of IBM's disparate collection of hardware.
    >>> Is recompilation really that much of a problem?

    >> No, but converting C/C++ or Cobol source code to run on a new
    >> platform can be major work.

    >
    > Right.


    Much like writing a JVM for a new platform can be major work.

    --
    Lew

  6. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:
    > Written for the Java 2 Enterprise Edition platform. Java is not just
    > a language. It's also a family of target platforms. The J2EE platform
    > is an enterprise server standard: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/overview.html


    Though, of course, these days Sun prefers to call it "Java EE", reserving
    "J2EE" for earlier versions.
    <http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/intro_ee5/>
    > With version 5 of the Java Platform, Enterprise Edition (Java EE,
    > formerly referred to as J2EE), ...
    > [t]he Java EE 5 platform introduces a simplified programming model
    > and eliminates much of the boilerplate that earlier releases required.


    --
    Lew

  7. Default Re: pointers

    Stefan Ram wrote:
    > Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> writes:
    >> no pointers,

    >
    > »(...) reference values (...) are pointers«
    >
    > JLS3, 4.3.1.
    >
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/t...ues.html#4.3.1


    OK, they're pointers, but they're pointers without the dangers of
    more traditional pointers.

    Maybe I should be more precise and say this: "Java doesn't allow
    you to shoot yourself in the foot by mistakenly accessing
    arbitrary machine addresses."

    Or maybe I should just say that Java doesn't have C-style pointers.
    You can't do things like finding out that two instances of some type
    are stored contiguously in memory, then add 1 to the pointer of
    the first and use it to access the second. You can't treat memory
    as a gigantic BCPL-style series of cells, all of which you can
    attempt to access, even though the attempt may lead to a
    catastrophic crash.

    Or maybe I should just say that, unlike many other languages, you
    have no means of creating a reference that is visible but invalid.

    Anyway, the term "pointers", like many words, has multiple meanings
    depending on context, and hopefully it was clear from context what
    sense I meant.

    - Logan

  8. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Lew wrote:
    > Jon Harrop wrote:
    >> Arne VajhĂžj wrote:
    >>> Jon Harrop wrote:
    >>>> Mark Thornton wrote:
    >>>>> In the server world, non x86 CPUs still exist. A Java app can run
    >>>>> unchanged on any of IBM's disparate collection of hardware.
    >>>> Is recompilation really that much of a problem?
    >>> No, but converting C/C++ or Cobol source code to run on a new
    >>> platform can be major work.

    >>
    >> Right.

    >
    > Much like writing a JVM for a new platform can be major work.


    .... work which has already been done, in many cases. Though
    certainly not ALL cases.

    - Logan

  9. Default Re: pointers

    ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

    > Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> writes:
    >> no pointers,

    >
    > »(...) reference values (...) are pointers«
    >
    > JLS3, 4.3.1.
    >
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/t...ues.html#4.3.1


    Quote the context, please:

    "The reference values (often just references) are /pointers/ to these
    objects, and a special null reference, which refers to no object."

    They are not saying references are Pointers. They are saying that
    references *point* to objects.

    Java does not have pointers, in the sense typically meant by that word,
    and as exemplified by pointers in C and C++.

    /L 'no pointers!'
    --
    Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com
    DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
    'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

  10. Default Re: Who uses Java?

    Lew <lew@lewscanon.com> writes:

    > Though, of course, these days Sun prefers to call it "Java EE",
    > reserving "J2EE" for earlier versions.
    > <http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/intro_ee5/>


    Oh, I know. It's just that the customers still want J2EE
    Personally, I'd love to switch to EJB3, JavaEE 5 and Java 5+, but
    that's only now beginning to happen now.

    /L
    --
    Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com
    DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
    'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

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