Job Market for Lisp and Haskell programmers, serious question.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:38:55 -0700, namekuseijin wrote:

> On 23 ago, 22:32, Kenny <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> samantha wrote:
>> > On Aug 16, 9:23 pm, "xah...@gmail.com" <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>Writing, is kinda therapeutic to me, and is so to perhaps most
>> >>professional writers. In the past 10+ years, most of my newsgroup
>> >>posts are carefully crafted to sting the tech geeking morons and
>> >>illustrate their moronicity.
>>
>> > So you admit you are a total ass with a nasty attitude and agenda.
>>
>> You make that sound like a bad thing.
>>
>> Meanwhile, Xah just enunciated the same policy as Jesus of Nazareth,
>> Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Lenny Bruce, and George Carlin. Your
>> interpretation may be a tad subcharitable.
>
> They had noble goals, Xah doesn't. (well, in the case of Carlin, making
> people laugh is a noble goal)
>
> What are his goals? To get emacs to behave like notepad and to get rid
> of Lisp's comments and syntatic sugar in badly written, pointless and
> incoherent "essays". That's laughable, in a bad sense. It could be
> funny, except for all the insults.
>
> And it only gets worse when he seems unaware he's not as bright as he
> portrays himself: he looks like the only "tech geeker moron" around.

I don't care what goals Xah has with trolling, but apparently quite a few
people reading this newsgroup have become the means to whatever he is
trying to achieve. Yes, he is trolling. But then some of you help him
by responding endlessly, inflating the threads he started far beyond what
their importance would justify.

I just don't understand what benefit otherwise intelligent people would
derive from becoming conversation partners to a disturbed individual.

Best,

Tamas

namekuseijin wrote:
> On 23 ago, 22:32, Kenny <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>samantha wrote:
>>
>>>On Aug 16, 9:23 pm, "xah...@gmail.com" <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Writing, is kinda therapeutic to me, and is so to perhaps most
>>>>professional writers. In the past 10+ years, most of my newsgroup
>>>>posts are carefully crafted to sting the tech geeking morons and
>>>>illustrate their moronicity.
>>
>>>So you admit you are a total ass with a nasty attitude and agenda.
>>
>>You make that sound like a bad thing.
>>
>>Meanwhile, Xah just enunciated the same policy as Jesus of Nazareth,
>>Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Lenny Bruce, and George Carlin. Your
>>interpretation may be a tad subcharitable.
>
>
> They had noble goals...

So f*cking what? I was comparing policies of getting through to people
by bearding the lion, not content. I feel a naggum coming on. Please do
not respond to my articles if you cannot keep up.

, Xah doesn't.

Xah is sincere in his convictions. That is all that matters.

> (well, in the case of Carlin,
> making people laugh is a noble goal)

You think Carlin was just making people laugh? Oh, I see, you never
heard one of his routines.... either that or you are thinking about
Jerry Seinfeld. Seinfeld, Carlin, and Bruce were all comedic craftsmen,
but Carlin and Bruce went further. Bruce got his ass arrested and
convicted for the language Xah uses and every comic on the stage uses
every time they go out there (except Seinfeld) these days in a country
that runs around screaming about how wonderful it is with its Bill of
Rights which does mention somewhere freedom of speech while commiting
atrocities personal and institutional in war and Gitmo. I digress.

>
> What are his goals? To get emacs to behave like notepad and to get
> rid of Lisp's comments and syntatic sugar in badly written, pointless
> and incoherent "essays". That's laughable, in a bad sense. It could
> be funny, except for all the insults.
>
> And it only gets worse when he seems unaware he's not as bright as he
> portrays himself: he looks like the only "tech geeker moron" around.

The tongue clucking finger wagging judgment making Greek chorus stands
safely on the sidelines while the tragic hero climbs out on a limb and
risks all. The good news is that you are both happy in your roles.

kt

Tamas K Papp wrote:

> I don't care what goals Xah has with trolling, but apparently quite a few
> people reading this newsgroup have become the means to whatever he is
> trying to achieve. Yes, he is trolling.

No, Harrop is trolling. Xah is sincere. If you cannot see his sincerity,
stop worrying abouyt Xah and start worrying about your ability to read
people.

> I just don't understand what benefit otherwise intelligent people would
> derive from becoming conversation partners to a disturbed individual.

Without fail, the best conversation partners are so disturbed they are
under treatment with psychotropic drugs. Or should be.

hth, kt

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:41:14 -0400, Kenny wrote:

> Tamas K Papp wrote:
>
>> I don't care what goals Xah has with trolling, but apparently quite a
>> few people reading this newsgroup have become the means to whatever he
>> is trying to achieve. Yes, he is trolling.
>
> No, Harrop is trolling. Xah is sincere. If you cannot see his sincerity,
> stop worrying abouyt Xah and start worrying about your ability to read
> people.

If he was sincerely looking for something, he would at least pay some
attention to the responses he gets, and would try to follow the advice of
others and write a bit of Lisp code. He does none of that: he has been
around for quite a while, and all the posts we get from him are the
regurgitations of his previous quasi-philosophical rants.

Whenever people take the time and make an honest effort to argue with his
points and correct his notions, they are ignored and he flies off on some
tangent. That kind of behavior doesn't strike me as particularly sincere
either.

I agree that he is not a malicious troll like the frog. But what is he
doing on c.l.l? He is neither willing to learn Lisp, nor is he capable
of helping others. All he does is raise obscure objections without
devoting at least a minimal amount of effort (eg googleing for 5 minutes)
to understanding what he is talking about.

> Without fail, the best conversation partners are so disturbed they are
> under treatment with psychotropic drugs. Or should be.

That is a romantic notion, and if you honestly believe that, I am sure
that you can easily find ideal conversation partners. I just don't see
why those conversations have to take place on c.l.l.

Tamas

Kenny <kentilton@gmail.com> writes:

> Xah is sincere in his convictions. That is all that matters.

That means that probably the best way to make him progress is to ignore him.

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/

Nobody can fix the economy. Nobody can be trusted with their finger
on the button. Nobody's perfect. VOTE FOR NOBODY.

Tamas K Papp wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:41:14 -0400, Kenny wrote:
>
>
>>Tamas K Papp wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't care what goals Xah has with trolling, but apparently quite a
>>>few people reading this newsgroup have become the means to whatever he
>>>is trying to achieve. Yes, he is trolling.
>>
>>No, Harrop is trolling. Xah is sincere. If you cannot see his sincerity,
>>stop worrying abouyt Xah and start worrying about your ability to read
>>people.
>
>
> If he was sincerely looking for something, he would at least pay some
> attention to the responses he gets, and would try to follow the advice of
> others and write a bit of Lisp code.

The witch doctor of a village is rarely also its CPA>

> He does none of that: he has been
> around for quite a while, and all the posts we get from him are the
> regurgitations of his previous quasi-philosophical rants.

It is what he does best.

>
> Whenever people take the time and make an honest effort to argue with his
> points and correct his notions, they are ignored and he flies off on some
> tangent. That kind of behavior doesn't strike me as particularly sincere
> either.

We need a good stallion-plow analogy here.

>
> I agree that he is not a malicious troll like the frog. But what is he
> doing on c.l.l?

The Statue of Liberty is closed for business, homeland security unable
to think of anything more subtle than drawing down the shutters and
throwing the deadbolts. c.l.l is the last refuge for the Jons and Xahs
chased out of every NG before, so cool we can absorb the witch doctors
and snake oil salesmen other NGs cannot handle. They love us, we
actually argue with them. They do not get that in other groups.

> He is neither willing to learn Lisp, nor is he capable
> of helping others. All he does is raise obscure objections without
> devoting at least a minimal amount of effort (eg googleing for 5 minutes)
> to understanding what he is talking about.

We need a good witch doctor-CPA analogy here.

>>Without fail, the best conversation partners are so disturbed they are
>>under treatment with psychotropic drugs. Or should be.
>
> That is a romantic notion, and if you honestly believe that

If you honestly believe that is romantic, you honestly know not of what
you speak. I feel sorry for you, you are missing out on some great
people. They are also the kindest, most decent, and most unjudgmental of
people for they have been through a lot (and done a lot they know was
not up to par).

Perhaps you cut and run at the first sign of madness. Maybe listen a
little, join in on the madness, see if you can keep up with their tea
party, but for the love of God do /not/ try to /reason/ with... anybody
got a link to "In Broken Images" by Robert Graves?

> , I am sure
> that you can easily find ideal conversation partners. I just don't see
> why those conversations have to take place on c.l.l.

Hello? Usenet?

kt

Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> Kenny <kentilton@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Xah is sincere in his convictions. That is all that matters.
>
>
> That means that probably the best way to make him progress is to ignore him.
>

At least the immediate content. The message of a good rant is carried by
a higher-order signal.

kt

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 05:46:16 -0400, Kenny wrote:

> The witch doctor of a village is rarely also its CPA

So what? Witch doctors do not have any track record of giving any
benefit to communities organized around programming languages.

>> He does none of that: he has been
>> around for quite a while, and all the posts we get from him are the
>> regurgitations of his previous quasi-philosophical rants.
>
> It is what he does best.

That may be true, but that still does not imply that he is the best at
what he does best, nor do we have to listen to him. It can very well
happen that juggling is what I do best, but that does not mean that I am
a good juggler, or that people will enjoy watching me juggle - I can
still be a lousy juggler.

> and snake oil salesmen other NGs cannot handle. They love us, we
> actually argue with them. They do not get that in other groups.

You may be right, but that does not mean that this state of affairs is a
desirable one.

>>>Without fail, the best conversation partners are so disturbed they are
>>>under treatment with psychotropic drugs. Or should be.
>>
>> That is a romantic notion, and if you honestly believe that
>
> If you honestly believe that is romantic, you honestly know not of what
> you speak. I feel sorry for you, you are missing out on some great
> people. They are also the kindest, most decent, and most unjudgmental of
> people for they have been through a lot (and done a lot they know was
> not up to par).

Perhaps I am spoiled, but I meet a lot of kind, decent and unjudgmental
people anyhow, so I don't have to look for disturbed people on purpose.
If you do, I also feel sorry for you.

But that is beside the point, as Xah does not strike me as kind or
unjudgmental in particular. Maybe he is decent, deep down, but I just
don't know enough about him to say either way.

Best,

Tamas

Tamas K Papp wrote:
> Perhaps I am spoiled, but I meet a lot of kind, decent and unjudgmental
> people anyhow,

Sure, salt of the earth, utterly dull. Recall the question was, what
purpose do some people serve in an NG.

> so I don't have to look for disturbed people on purpose.

Move to NYC, you won't have to look.

> If you do, I also feel sorry for you.

If one's heart is open one does not have to look. They are all around
us. Simply adjust the gain on your antenna and the ravings become poetry.

Now I have to go refill my sactimony tank...

kt

Kenny <kentilton@gmail.com> writes:

> Tamas K Papp wrote:
>
>> I don't care what goals Xah has with trolling, but apparently quite
>> a few people reading this newsgroup have become the means to
>> whatever he is trying to achieve. Yes, he is trolling.
>
> No, Harrop is trolling. Xah is sincere.

That exactly is what should worry all readers of Xah's posts. I have
had enough of these postings here, so I do what I normally try to
avoid: Post a non-Lisp related article here in c.l.l. as I am just too
upset (and yes, I *do* know that this is very goal our dear Xah has).

We have seen many postings of his "essays". For me, the classification
of these texts are like propaganda:

They

1. have a message,
2. are repeated over and over,
3. are sent without having asked for,
4. do not intend to sincerely ask for interactive exchange of
information,
5. are written to leave room for interpretation,
6. are aiming to polarize the audience.

Again, I want to emphasize that this is *my* classification, not meant
to be disiputed or questioned or to be made into an objective observation
in any scientific sense.

> If you cannot see his
> sincerity, stop worrying abouyt Xah and start worrying about your
> ability to read people.

2 comments to this:

For one, a person trying to distribute propaganda sincerely is case
for observing closely what is happening. I am German. I do know what
propaganda can lead to.

On a second point I still do have the feeling
that, by either intently or by sheer inability, Xah is writing in a
vague English wording and this leads to a difficulty in reading his
texts, let alone read him.

>
>> I just don't understand what benefit otherwise intelligent people
>> would derive from becoming conversation partners to a disturbed
>> individual.
>
> Without fail, the best conversation partners are so disturbed they are
> under treatment with psychotropic drugs. Or should be.
>
> hth, kt

Ok, non-native English speaker here. I do not get the real meaning
of that last paragraph, Kenny, I fear. Could you elaborate? Thx!

Frank

--

Frank Goenninger

frgo(at)me(dot)com

"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."