Alternatives - lisp

Rainer Joswig <joswig@lisp.de> writes:

> Brian, you are going to be totally off-topic discussing Ruby vs. F#
> on comp.lang.lisp. You might want to consider moving this discussion
> to another newsgroup (comp.lang.ruby, ...) or to private conversation.
>
> Please try to stay on-topic.

You're absolutely right - my apologies. Rather than the two options
you suggested, I think lowering his gnus score is best

In article <m2wsfbbad1.fsf@gmail.com>,
Brian Adkins <lojicdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rainer Joswig <joswig@lisp.de> writes:
>
> > Brian, you are going to be totally off-topic discussing Ruby vs. F#
> > on comp.lang.lisp. You might want to consider moving this discussion
> > to another newsgroup (comp.lang.ruby, ...) or to private conversation.
> >
> > Please try to stay on-topic.
>
> You're absolutely right - my apologies. Rather than the two options
> you suggested, I think lowering his gnus score is best


Thanks.

--
http://lispm.dyndns.org/

On 2008-11-10, Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
> Brian Adkins wrote:
>> Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> writes:
>>> Google search, Wink and MSN Live AdCenter all use functional programming.
>>> The last two use code in OCaml and F#, respectively.
>>
>> Google search uses primarily C++, Python & Java.
>
> Map-reduce.

Note how this is not called ``map-fold-left'' or ``map-inject''.

> Listen to Microsoft's AdCenter team:
>
> "F# was absolutely integral to our success"
>
> "We couldn?t have achieved this with any other tool given the constraints of
> the task"

Couldn?t have done what? Replaced random apostrophes with question marks?

Brian Adkins wrote:
> Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> writes:
>> Listen to Microsoft's AdCenter team:
>>
>> "F# was absolutely integral to our success"
>>
>> "We couldn’t have achieved this with any other tool given the constraints
>> of the task"
>
> F# marketing speak from Microsoft? The latter statement reveals more about
> their team and you (if you believe it) than the technology.

I suppose you think Microsoft are secretly using Ruby but giving F# all the
credit?

>> This is not my domain
>
> Agreed

But you claim this is your domain and, yet, I have provided infinitely more
examples than you have. What can this mean?

>> so perhaps I am mistaken but I cannot find a single billion dollar web
>> app written in Ruby.
>
> So? For someone with a supposed Phd, you sorely lack a sense of
> relevance.

You challenged me to provide "some success stories regarding FPLs in the web
arena". If you cannot handle the facts, you should not have asked for them.

> Whether there is or isn't a "billion dollar web app written in
> Ruby" is irrelevant to me...

In other words, you have no idea.

> More to the point, if you believe that the use of a particular
> technology in a billion dollar system is an indication that the
> technology is the best tool for *any* system, you are naive and/or
> ignorant.

Strawman argument.

>> If you want more...
>
> I don't.

I'm not surprised.

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?u

Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Brian, you are going to be totally off-topic discussing Ruby vs. F#
> on comp.lang.lisp. You might want to consider moving this discussion
> to another newsgroup (comp.lang.ruby, ...) or to private conversation.

Or we could ask whether Lisp is more widely used for significant web apps
than Ruby? I'd wager it probably is.

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?u

Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Brian, you are going to be totally off-topic discussing Ruby vs. F#
> on comp.lang.lisp. You might want to consider moving this discussion
> to another newsgroup (comp.lang.ruby, ...) or to private conversation.
>
> Please try to stay on-topic.

please note that your own post of trying to tell other's what to do,
is off topic.

in my 13 years of using newsgroup, i find that people like you
contribute the most to so-called newsgroup noise.

This class of people includes, all those troll-criers, those who tell
others about how it should be top-post/bottom-post, those who tell
others how they should quote their messages, those who says how
message should be ascii only, or plain text only, those who tell
others how lines shouldn't be some 80 char each... etc.

one aspect of verifying this is to check if newsgroup noise has
improved in the past decade. You'll find that it is not better, if not
worse.


For a collection of essays regarding these issues, see:

• Netiquette Anthropology
http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/troll.html

Here's a plain text excerpt of one of the essay

------------------------------------
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/w...ignorance.html
On Ignoring Trolls

Xah Lee, 2002-09

Dear troll readers,

I resent your uncouth advice on dealing with trolls. To the average
intellects rampant here, the “gospel of ignorance” seems tobe the
sage advice for dealing with trolls, but has anyone noticed that it is
a rhetorical advice and never worked?

Alas, it is never going to work, because, like corruption or thievery
or mistrust, it takes a single cell to thwart the whole system, where
society necessarily became law-laden, lock-decorated, and mistrustful,
and that is the nature of things.

I have been more and more viewing things from a Artificial Life↗ or
Dynamical Systems↗ point of view. Ignoring trolls is indeed a above-
average advice, because it is a form of education, of the probable
theorization of how troll operates. However, it is a bit valueless if
one do not understand the core of the problem, or never took time to
think and ****yze the complete picture. There are indeed many
perspectives and questions to be asked on the subject of troll. For
example, why do trolls troll? What is their ilk, if any? What caused
their disposition? Apparently a simple first question like this
already calls for researches that likely no sociologist has undertook.
Immediately the question begs how do we define a “troll”. As with
“intelligence”, i'm sure it is elusive. Of the liberally orliterally
endowed, one can probe on the writing styles of good trolls, such as
mine. Now, have you observed, that certain trolls tend to exhibit
phantasmagoric reconditeness in their produce? Say, the Erik Naggum
fellow (or Richard Stallman, Linus Torvald, Larry Wall), who has i'm
sure in various times been labeled a troll, and a big monstrous one at
that. As you can see, a clear definition of troll now becomes
painfully necessary. Just exactly who is troll and who is not? Is it
by intent or by result?

The issue of how to deal with trolls is in fact a stupid question not
realized. If one traces the origin of troll, she'll find that it is a
human phenomenon, not particular to newsgroups. The word trolling has
somewhat specific meaning in the beginning. According to the Jargon
File (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/index.html), it originally means the
act of message posting that ensures fire, knowingly or not. Today, the
word troll is both verb and noun, and is applied loosely to any
outsider. If you don't like someone's manner, he is a troll. If you
don't like a gadfly, he is a troll. If you don't like a philosopher,
he is a troll. If you don't like a inquirer, he is a troll. If you
don't like a humorist, he is a troll. If you don't like a teacher, he
is a troll. If you don't like witches, they are, well, witches and
must be witch-hunted. Thusly, from weirdo to witch, from teacher to
philosopher, from gadfly to firebrand, from loner to gay, they are all
trolls online at your call. Quick spun the guild of killfilers and
troll-criers. Anyone who has contrariwise things to say or the manner
of saying it is a troll.

Before the internet, there are epithets of weirdo, geek, oddball,
screwball, crank, kook, crackpot, jester, queer, fruitcake, firebrand,
gadfly, hell-raiser, rabble-rouser, outsider, loner, desperado, witch.
Their owners exist everywhere, from your highschool to your workplace.
As you can see, trolls were not born with the internet. It was with us
from the dawn of time. It is of course oblivious to the mainstream.
After all, who like witches?

Now what about the process aspect? I'm sure all of you who read me
have at least ten years of living experience. Of these years, 2/3 of
the time your eyes must be open. So, you must have some inkling of the
general situation of human activities. In conglomerations, people do
all kinds of things; and throughout a life time, view changes,
behavior changes, life-style changes. What is it, that has every
online discussion groups plagued with the troll phenomenon? Of course
both troll and troll-dealers are responsible, but what made them tick?
Now coming back to our original sagacious advice of ignoring trolls,
why would it _never_ work? Could you now see the complexity of the
problem? From a process point of view, troll-criers feed trolls
because that made them both happy. Spatting and babbling is a inherent
part of discussion. Do you honest think there should or would be a
pure society filled with perfect logicians who have unilateral goals
and impeccable manners? Good trolls, such as myself, ENJOY trolling.
Troll-feeders, enjoy spitting on their targets. (it's a human need.)
Troll advisers, enjoy giving troll-dealing advice. Bleeding-hearts,
enjoy speaking out for so-called trolls. The more open a forum, the
more diversity. Nothing can be less natural.

I don't know if i should have some conclusive remarks about troll. You
see, i'm beginning to view things as a process, a ever changing
dynamic system, a Artificial Life system model. The human-simpletons
are just little insignificant entities in a environment of billions of
them, each effecting local happenings in a diverse and extreme complex
way with some simple but fuzzy needs, along which some emergent
phenomena arise, among them trolling.

PS i as a troll is rather special because i tend to put a final say on
things, in contrast with one-liner trolls i myself despise. (In a
sense i'm a anti-troll, untroll, or a atrocious atroll.) At first i
balked at being branded a troll. Now i revel it. I as a troll is
rather recent, beginning and getting worse about in 1998. I have been
using online discussion medium since 1990. Perhaps one day i'll write
“how i became a troll”. It is bound to be a tragedy.

I'll find a day to massacre them all,
And raze their faction and their family...
—William Shakespeare, in Titus Andronicus

Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

"xahlee@gmail.com" <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote on Mon, 10 Nov 2008:
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
>> Brian, you are going to be totally off-topic discussing Ruby vs. F#
>> on comp.lang.lisp.
>> Please try to stay on-topic.
>
> please note that your own post of trying to tell other's what to do,
> is off topic.

So is your post, Mighty Xah! Whereas I, on the other hand ... oh, damn it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ don@geddis.org