Diving into CL....

Hi, I've decided to finally go ahead and learn Common LISP. CL looks
like a very powerful language that could be of great use to me. I've
got a little experience with Scheme and a copy of Practical Common
LISP so I'm not entirely in the dark but I have a few dumb
questions....

1.) What do you all recommend as a toolkit for writing GUI apps? I
played with McCLIM briefly but it was a little too slow for most
things I'd want to do with it. CLIM does seem pretty neat though. Is
there a GTK+ or a Tk bridge that offer reasonable performance and a
simple Lispy interface? Being actively maintained would be a plus.

I know LISPWorks and a few other commercial LISPs offer extensive GUI
support but there's a couple problems:

- I run a wide variety of machines including UltraSPARC, a couple
embedded ARM boxes, PowerPC/Intel macs and even an old MicroVAX. I'd
like my code to be fairly portable across several *NIX machines.

- Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive. I'm
learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
writing LISP code. Dropping $600+ on a LISP environment with no
payoff is not appealing.

2.) What flavor of CL do you all recommend? Currently I'm running
SBCL w/ Slime. Getting used to EMACS has been interesting but I
actually like it now. I'm surprised someone hasn't slapped EMACS on
top of OSKit and called it an operating system yet.

3.) Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
recommend? I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
space combat sim. LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.

4.) Is there a fairly simple web development framework out there with
things like session management, etc for CL?

I appreciate any help and pointers anyone is willing to give. Thanks!

--Kevin Ogden

På Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:25:38 +0100, skrev <kdogden@gmail.com>:

> Hi, I've decided to finally go ahead and learn Common LISP. CL looks
> like a very powerful language that could be of great use to me. I've
> got a little experience with Scheme and a copy of Practical Common
> LISP so I'm not entirely in the dark but I have a few dumb
> questions....
>
> 1.) What do you all recommend as a toolkit for writing GUI apps? I
> played with McCLIM briefly but it was a little too slow for most
> things I'd want to do with it. CLIM does seem pretty neat though. Is
> there a GTK+ or a Tk bridge that offer reasonable performance and a
> simple Lispy interface? Being actively maintained would be a plus.
>
> I know LISPWorks and a few other commercial LISPs offer extensive GUI
> support but there's a couple problems:
>
> - I run a wide variety of machines including UltraSPARC, a couple
> embedded ARM boxes, PowerPC/Intel macs and even an old MicroVAX. I'd
> like my code to be fairly portable across several *NIX machines.
>
> - Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive. I'm
> learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
> fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
> writing LISP code. Dropping $600+ on a LISP environment with no
> payoff is not appealing.
>
> 2.) What flavor of CL do you all recommend? Currently I'm running
> SBCL w/ Slime. Getting used to EMACS has been interesting but I
> actually like it now. I'm surprised someone hasn't slapped EMACS on
> top of OSKit and called it an operating system yet.
>
> 3.) Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
> recommend? I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
> space combat sim. LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.
>
> 4.) Is there a fairly simple web development framework out there with
> things like session management, etc for CL?
>
> I appreciate any help and pointers anyone is willing to give. Thanks!
>
> --Kevin Ogden

Well I prefer LispWorks wich works on most of the machines you mentioned.
But to get if for free a tookit over GTK sounds best. How about cl-gtk?
Don't have much experience with it, but I belive it to be pretty current.

--------------
John Thingstad

On Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:25:38 -0800, kdogden wrote:

> Hi, I've decided to finally go ahead and learn Common LISP. CL looks

Good decision.

> 1.) What do you all recommend as a toolkit for writing GUI apps? I
> played with McCLIM briefly but it was a little too slow for most things
> I'd want to do with it. CLIM does seem pretty neat though. Is there a
> GTK+ or a Tk bridge that offer reasonable performance and a simple Lispy
> interface? Being actively maintained would be a plus.

http://www.cliki.net/Ltk is a Tk toolkit for CL.

> - Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive. I'm learning

Some offer a free version with license/heap limitations etc. But I
agree, I am using SBCL.

> 2.) What flavor of CL do you all recommend? Currently I'm running SBCL
> w/ Slime. Getting used to EMACS has been interesting but I actually

Same here, if you like it, stick with it. SBCL has fantastic support and
is very fast.

> 3.) Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can recommend?
> I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/ space combat
> sim. LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.

http://www.cliki.net/OpenGL Bindings

(the URL has a space in it)

Note however that foreign libraries and such things may not be the best
thing to start with for a newbie. I would experiment with something that
I can handle in pure CL first.

In general, cliki.net is a good place to start when you are looking for
libraries.

HTH,

Tamas

kdogden@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I've decided to finally go ahead and learn Common LISP. CL looks
> like a very powerful language that could be of great use to me. I've
> got a little experience with Scheme and a copy of Practical Common
> LISP so I'm not entirely in the dark but I have a few dumb
> questions....
>
> 1.) What do you all recommend as a toolkit for writing GUI apps? I
> played with McCLIM briefly but it was a little too slow for most
> things I'd want to do with it. CLIM does seem pretty neat though. Is
> there a GTK+ or a Tk bridge that offer reasonable performance and a
> simple Lispy interface? Being actively maintained would be a plus.

cells-gtk got some very nice work recently from Peter Hildebrandt, after
earlier nice work by Peter Denno and before him its author Vasily
Margioulas, spelling doubtful. Peter added an OPneGL widget, an SVG
widget, some threading fixes, and probably room temperature
superconductivity.

>
> I know LISPWorks and a few other commercial LISPs offer extensive GUI
> support but there's a couple problems:
>
> - I run a wide variety of machines including UltraSPARC, a couple
> embedded ARM boxes, PowerPC/Intel macs and even an old MicroVAX. I'd
> like my code to be fairly portable across several *NIX machines.
>
> - Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive.

Lost it all in mortgage-backed securities, eh? But you want GUIs and
portability across everything from your Cray to your programmable
toaster. For free. Ah, the Stallman Generation.

> I'm
> learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
> fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
> writing LISP code.

Think you can or think you can't, either way you'll be right. The
employers won't use Lisp because they cannot find Lisp programmers, and
programmers won't learn Lisp because their are no jobs. They deserve
each other.

Meanwhile the programmers who should be using Lisp (you know, the ones
who will pay for a decent Lisp even for a hobby) get jobs from those
employers who do use Lisp knowing the only programmers they will find
are True Lispers.

> Dropping $600+ on a LISP environment with no
> payoff is not appealing.

I doubt I will ever get paid to do it, but I still pay to drink in
sports bars.

>
> 2.) What flavor of CL do you all recommend? Currently I'm running
> SBCL w/ Slime. Getting used to EMACS has been interesting but I
> actually like it now. I'm surprised someone hasn't slapped EMACS on
> top of OSKit and called it an operating system yet.
>
> 3.) Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
> recommend? I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
> space combat sim. LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.

I've had fun.

>
> 4.) Is there a fairly simple web development framework out there with
> things like session management, etc for CL?

WebActions+Allegroserve.

hth,kzo

Skipping questions others answered.

kdogden@gmail.com wrote:
> - I run a wide variety of machines including UltraSPARC, a couple
> embedded ARM boxes, PowerPC/Intel macs and even an old MicroVAX. I'd
> like my code to be fairly portable across several *NIX machines.

I mostly use SBCL, but ECL (ecls.sf.net) is easier to compile and run
on "unusual" machines. CLisp is another good lightweight.


> 3.) Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
> recommend? I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
> space combat sim. LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.

I lean towards glfw (not keen on GLUT)
http://www.cliki.net/cl-glfw

PAL is another option system
http://common-lisp.net/project/pal/


- Daniel

On Nov 6, 10:25*pm, kdog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I've decided to finally go ahead and learn Common LISP. *CL looks
> like a very powerful language that could be of great use to me. *I've
> got a little experience with Scheme and a copy of Practical Common
> LISP so I'm not entirely in the dark but I have a few dumb
> questions....
>

> 2.) *What flavor of CL do you all recommend? *
It depends what you want. On *nices if you want OSS probably sbcl and
clozure cl.
For the most portability probably CLisp.
>
> 3.) *Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
> recommend? *I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
> space combat sim. *LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in.
cl-opengl is fine.
>
> 4.) *Is there a fairly simple web development framework out there with
> things like session management, etc for CL?
Try this one http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/
>
> I appreciate any help and pointers anyone is willing to give. *Thanks!
>
> --Kevin Ogden

> - *Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive. *I'm
> learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
> fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
> writing LISP code. *Dropping $600+ on a LISP environment with no
> payoff is not appealing.

I'm sure the vendor would argue that the payoff is that you are
getting a LISP environment that is worth $600+.

What is it about the environment that makes you feel like it is not
worth the price?

Kenny wrote:
> kdogden@gmail.com wrote:

>> I'm
>> learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
>> fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
>> writing LISP code.
>
>
> Think you can or think you can't, either way you'll be right. The
> employers won't use Lisp because they cannot find Lisp programmers, and
> programmers won't learn Lisp because their are no jobs. They deserve
> each other.
>
> Meanwhile the programmers who should be using Lisp (you know, the ones
> who will pay for a decent Lisp even for a hobby) get jobs from those
> employers who do use Lisp knowing the only programmers they will find
> are True Lispers.

From a 2006 Ajaxian survey of Web frameworks:

"One participant uses Delphi (how’s that working out for you?), and
another is using LISP (can we hire you?)."
http://ajaxian.com/archives/ajaxianc...survey-results

hth,kzo

On Nov 7, 1:26*pm, Grant Rettke <gret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > - *Commercial LISP implementations are horribly expensive. *I'm
> > learning Common LISP as a hobbyist because I've come to grips with the
> > fact that there's a snowball's chance in hell of me EVER getting a job
> > writing LISP code. *Dropping $600+ on a LISP environment with no
> > payoff is not appealing.
>
> I'm sure the vendor would argue that the payoff is that you are
> getting a LISP environment that is worth $600+.

It might be worth $600. I'll probably never know.

> What is it about the environment that makes you feel like it is not
> worth the price?

The fact that I have 3 kids and currently have a sysadmin/teaching job
that only pays about $30k/yr. It's not that I don't think it's worth
it. I simply can't afford it.

I do have a version of OpenGenera I found somewhere that runs on the
Alpha though. I haven't played with it yet. I may get around to it
someday. That's probably the closest I'll get to a LISP machine in
modern times.

--Kevin D. Ogden

On Nov 6, 9:00*pm, D Herring <dherr...@at.tentpost.dot.com> wrote:
> Skipping questions others answered.
>
> kdog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > - *I run a wide variety of machines including UltraSPARC, a couple
> > embedded ARM boxes, PowerPC/Intel macs and even an old MicroVAX. *I'd
> > like my code to be fairly portable across several *NIX machines.
>
> I mostly use SBCL, but ECL (ecls.sf.net) is easier to compile and run
> on "unusual" machines. *CLisp is another good lightweight.
>
> > 3.) *Are there any good LISP OpenGL libraries that anyone can
> > recommend? *I was thinking of eventually writing a cheesy spaceflight/
> > space combat sim. *LISP seems like a pretty cool language to do it in..
>
> I lean towards glfw (not keen on GLUT)http://www.cliki.net/cl-glfw
>
> PAL is another option systemhttp://common-lisp.net/project/pal/
>
> - Daniel


Seriously, thanks for all the pointers everyone! I appreciate all the
help with very little flaming involved. Not used to that on Usenet.

Thanks,

--Kevin D. Ogden