[LogoForum] Re: KTurtle--LOGO for Linux-KDELogo : logo

The message below is being cross-posted from LogoForum.

--- In LogoForum@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Ajoy" <dajoy@o...> wrote:

> Let's see, if .... Brian and his students are creating a
> new UCBLogo that is:
>
> new ucblogo = current ucblogo + wxWindows

Cool, I didn't know Brian was working on a new UI. Is it going to be
geared toward young children (K-5) or will it still target a more
mature audience (high-school and college)?

I would be very happy if the new UCBLogo provides everything that I
want from a Logo system, because I wouldn't have to spend any
time maintaining MSWLogo. However, if UCBLogo and MSWLogo continue to
occupy different niches, it will still be worthwhile to maintain
MSWLogo.

Although your argument is cleverly presented, the presentation
obscures some important facts.

First, I think of mswlogo more along these lines:

mswlogo = old ucblogo +
MS Window interface +
Existing multi-national Web sites and documentation on MSWLogo +
Community's past experience and comfort with MSWLogo

I think the last two addends are quite large and cannot be easily
compared with the ****ogous terms for UCBLogo. These things have
different values to different people and cannot simply be quantified
linearly.

Second, aUCBLogo already has the new UCBLogo engine + wxWindows +
OpenGL support + anti-aliasing + a great editor. Based on your logic,
you should also ask why Brian is bothering to create a new UCBLogo
that will be inferior to the current aUCBLogo (using the same naive
algebra). My guess is that Brian's motivations are the same as my
own, we want to make sure there's a Logo environment that suits our
own needs.

Third, just because two systems use wxWindows, it does not follow
that they will use it in the same way. When I was deciding on a Logo
package for my workshop, I favored MSWLogo over UCBLogo because I
thought the buttons, menu interface, integrated editor, and command
recall were more appropriate for young chidren. Will Brian add these
to the new UCBLogo? Maybe. If not, then MSWLogo will continue to be
more valuable to its target audience.

> what is the benefit of creating a:
>
> mswlogo - MS Windows interface + wxWindows

I think the more pertinent question is "what are the benefits of
MSWLogo", rather than "what are the benefits of MSWLogo on wxWindows"
as it is obvious what benefits wxWindows give to MSWLogo (it's freer,
more portable, and opens maintainence up to more people).

Answering the question of "what are the benefits of MSWLogo" is more
difficult. My answer is that I think the UI is better suited for
young children than UCBLogo and that's enough to make it worth
maintaining. That may change depending on what goes into the new
UCBLogo.



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"david_costanzo" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:
> mswlogo = old ucblogo +
> MS Window interface +
> Existing multi-national Web sites and documentation on MSWLogo +
> Community's past experience and comfort with MSWLogo

MSWLogo has a lot of things besides the GUI: 3D support, various
multimedia things, ability to call all the MS Windows system calls.

I'm not planning on adding any of that, not because I hate them (except the
last part), but because this is a low-budget project and those things aren't
my priorities. And, as you say, I'm not planning a button-ful GUI.

I wouldn't mind at all if someone wanted to make the union of all these
similar implementations. I could never get behind MSWLogo strongly partly
because it's limited to one platform, and partly because of its misfeature
of popping up a dialog window whenever you try to READLIST.

The wxWindows UCBLogo will have the Object Logo "listener window" behavior:
what you type stays at the bottom even if the program prints something
meanwhile, until it's read, then it's glued in place. (You can copy but not
cut, and you can paste only at the bottom, so what's on the screen is an
accurate record of what you did.) And yet using SETCURSOR to control where
your typing appears also works. That'll be the big UI advance. Otherwise
pretty traditional UCBLogo look.

But give me a proper listener window, and give me text interaction without
dialog boxes, and give me a question-mark prompt at the front of the line,
and I'll be happy to have other features also.