I'm in tears and ready to quit

A few years ago I performed web site maintenance for my company. I decided
that web design would be a great job for me because I can work from home, I
have a degree in graphic design and I really enjoyed the basics of web
designing. Well, for some reason I cannot grasp CSS. I have created a great
mock-up in Fireworks and sliced it to import into DW. I've created my DIVs and
now I have a jumbled mess. Things wont sit where I want them to and I know you
can't use CSS to position everything on your page. I keep hearing that I should
stay away from tables as the hardcore designers say only to use CSS. But what
is someone like me to do? I have read the Missing Manual series, I have taken
courses on Lynda.com and I have read almost every tip and pointer in the Adobe
forums. What can I do to make this easier? I've heard that laying out your
page solely in CSS is tough but what else can I do if using tables isn't the
"way to go".

I'm ready to give up and I can't. I have two clients who need really basic
sites and I can't even get them off the ground. If you have suggestions on how
I should lay out my page that will be easiest to learn and still stay within
best practices I would appreciate it. I do not want to give up but I'm
exhausted.

Cheers.

> I know you can't use CSS to position everything on your page
Yes you can.

> stay away from tables as the hardcore designers say only to use CSS
I would say generally CSS-P is superior to tables, except for tabular data
of course, but not because "hardcore designers say only to use CSS". Instead
it's because you have far more control and flexibility, usually with less
code that is easier to maintain.

You may find this book helpful: Cascading Style Sheets - A Beginner's Guide,
by James H. Pence
--

Walt


"Ruby7829" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:g92dgo$n77$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>A few years ago I performed web site maintenance for my company. I decided
> that web design would be a great job for me because I can work from home,
> I
> have a degree in graphic design and I really enjoyed the basics of web
> designing. Well, for some reason I cannot grasp CSS. I have created a
> great
> mock-up in Fireworks and sliced it to import into DW. I've created my
> DIVs and
> now I have a jumbled mess. Things wont sit where I want them to and I know
> you
> can't use CSS to position everything on your page. I keep hearing that I
> should
> stay away from tables as the hardcore designers say only to use CSS. But
> what
> is someone like me to do? I have read the Missing Manual series, I have
> taken
> courses on Lynda.com and I have read almost every tip and pointer in the
> Adobe
> forums. What can I do to make this easier? I've heard that laying out
> your
> page solely in CSS is tough but what else can I do if using tables isn't
> the
> "way to go".
>
> I'm ready to give up and I can't. I have two clients who need really
> basic
> sites and I can't even get them off the ground. If you have suggestions
> on how
> I should lay out my page that will be easiest to learn and still stay
> within
> best practices I would appreciate it. I do not want to give up but I'm
> exhausted.
>
> Cheers.
>

If you have two clients waiting for you to finish their projects, why don't you
just use tables for now? Are your clients specifically asking for table-free
design?

I'd say you're setting yourself up for failure if you want to be a "hardcore
designer" right out of the gate.

Once you're ready and you're not actually under the pressure of deadlines,
take it one set at a time. Figure out how to assign an ID to a div, then figure
out how to set a background color and size for that particular ID. Then move on
to the next step. If you get stuck just stop and figure out that one tiny piece
of the puzzle before you move on. If you can't figure it out, ask us!

>If you have two clients waiting for you to finish their projects, why don't
you just use tables for now?

I agree. Most of the 'hardcore designers' that preach never use tables for
layouts, used tables for layouts themselves at some point. CSS layouts are
preferred, but that doesn't invalidate the use of tables. Keep working the CSS
tutorials and you'll get it, but until then don't let it keep you from getting
your work done.

[q]Originally posted by: Ruby7829
I'm ready to give up and I can't. I have two clients who need really basic
sites and I can't even get them off the ground. If you have suggestions on how
I should lay out my page that will be easiest to learn and still stay within
best practices I would appreciate it. I do not want to give up but I'm
exhausted.
[/q]

If you think you can't do it, then don't do it.

I agreed with other posters. Additionally, the most part of any web design
project, it is imperative that you "know" and "understand" the hard core of
HTML and CSS. By having both of your hands dirty under the hood of HTML and
CSS, then you'll do just fine. It takes lot of practice, determination and
patience. The dividend pays off nicely in time, once you have some comfort zone
of HTML and CSS hand-coding.

Good luck!

Ruby7829,

To get both of your hands dirty under the hood of HTML and eventually CSS, to
do this:

Have a look and bookmark this:
http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/

Perhaps you could use some excellent, exceptional coffee, because you are
going to need this for quite some time.

Hope the link helps.
Cheers,
DWD, a passionate DW CS3 user

And one other valuable source of information, there are lot of good stuff and
information, and many great tips, and many more.

Have a look, and bookmark this one too:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/

Cheers, DWD

Thank you! This is what I wanted to hear. I was so worried that I needed to
use CSS that it was fogging my ability to concentrate. The posts from people
have really helped me relax and take it one step at a time. I cannot learn CSS
overnight. Thanks again!

Hi Ruby,

I know what you mean - there is definitely a lot to learn. I'm far from being
an expert, but it does get easier as you become more familiar with it all.

Not sure what other's advice would be, but I never use that whole slice and
dice approach with Fireworks. When I first had DW and FW I used it to do a
navigation bar, but was way more convoluted than necessary.

People will always say to learn how to code, but I've found it useful to use
some tools, or ready built bits of code, and then play around with them to
learn what does what etc.

If you've used FW to do a navigation bar, you might want to check this site
out, which has code for several navigation styles using CSS to style lists -
far easier and more efficient than the FW slicing and dicing approach.

So if you do a couple of basic ones, and then play around with the CSS it
should help you get a feel for it.

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/

Also - not sure what version of DW you have, but the last couple have several
page layout templates which create the page with the layout you select, and
creates the associated CSS. Possibly a better way to go than using FW.

With tables - I often use them if it's just as easy to - if something is
actually in a tabular structure, and you're not doing loads of nested tables,
then why not use a table? Whatever works best for you, and all that.

What I tend to do is use <DIV>s for the general layout - so typically have a
wrapper <div> which holds everything, a header <div>, maincontent <div> with
one, two or three columns, and a footer <div>

But if there's something tabular within one of those main <div>s I'll usually
just use a table.

Once you get the hang of something like that, hopefully it won't seem so
frustrating just getting your page layouts done.

And it is quite rewarding when you do get it right!

I am not a pro website designer like most the people on here. In fact. I ask a
lot of stupid questions...im sure.
I am nearly in your position.
In building sites, I use a combination of CSS and tables. Nobody but yourself
is even going to know how you've designed the sites so dont worry. If the site
is over about 100 pages...I'd say don't try it just yet...as you would probably
have to get into PHP/ASP and MySQL.
If your looking for inspiration on a slick looking page...just look around on
the net or take a look at some of the templates given to you by DW. Im not sure
if you should use them..in fact...somebody is bound to comment back...shouting
me down for using them...as the CSS can be confusing for a begginner ..and you
obviously wont really understand how the site got to be at that stage. I
however, made one of my sites right off a DW template and it looks really good.
Keep it up. Ask for more time maybe? And dont panic.