Do I need Fireworks? Duplicate Software?

SiamJai wrote:
> [q]Originally posted by: JoeyD1978
> I do all of my masking and photo work in Photoshop. Both applications have
> been a part of my workflow for over ten years. But if I had to I could do that
> photo work in Fireworks too, although not as quickly and efficiently.[/q]
> Hmm... are you sure? I've been doing advanced photomanips and other raster work
> in Fireworks for years, and I found it quick and efficient. Universal plugins
> that can be used both in PS and FW greatly enhance the raster-editing
> capabilities of Fireworks (AlienSkin stuff, for example).
>
> Joe, I think that your first advice was spot-on. I practically replaced
> Photoshop with Fireworks and it works great, regardless of whether it's about
> photos, webdesign, UI or animation. :-)
>
>
> SiamJai
> ~~~~
> http://design.thaiwonders.com - Innovative Fireworks Tutorials
>

Agreed, but Fireworks is not set up to handle large high resolution
files efficiently, especially if you incorporate Live Filters into the mix.

A while back, I tried an experiment where I imported high res files into
a Fireworks design and converted them all to symbols. I then resized the
instances down to a more manageable size for FW, created my collage and
then resized all the images back to their original size.

This made it quick and easy to do the work in FW, and because the photos
were all symbols, I lost no quality when I sized them back up to their
original dimensions.

I don't know how often I'd do this, but it did work.

--
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---
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[q]Originally posted by: JoeyD1978
This article explains everything quite well:

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/firework...fireworks.html

Fireworks isn't something you use in addition to Photoshop, it's something you
use *instead* of Photoshop.

__________________________________________________

Visit my http://joedasilva.com/blog/ for tutorials and workflow techniques.
[/q]


The reason I marked Joey's post as "right on" as an answer to my post was the
article he cited (link included above). It provides the necessary information
to determine how Fireworks can fit into your work flow. As for whether or not I
(or YOU) will use it, it's apparently a personal-choice decision ... hence the
number of contradictory posts.

I would also disagree with the assertion that Firewoks can replace Photoshop.
My basis for that statement is my initial experience with the resolution of
graphics coming out of Fireworks. Why create graphics at low resolution when
you could have a print project in the future that needs 300 dpi graphics.. I
would prefer to create my graphics in CorelDRAW or Illustrator and do photo
work in Photoshop, scaling the work down and using the SAVE TO WEB export
filter which I've tweaked to get very good results. That way, when projects
requiring high-resolution graphics come up, I don't have to re-invent the
wheel, so to speak. I don't see that Fireworks can save as or export to a
scalable EPS graphic.

Since my intial post, I've installed Fireworks and tried a couple of things. I
went to Joey's blog (cited above) and tried the lessons. While I would have
liked to have seen these blogs take me all the way through integration with
Dreamweaver. I found them informative. Big Kudos to Joey for pointing me (and
other readers of the blog) to two online resources for free/affordable type and
stock photos!

In the absence of instruction for integrating these graphics into a
Dreamweaver design, I tried exporting the graphics at their partially finished
state. The gradient band that he has employed in the header looks terrible
coming out of Fireworks, as does the drop shadow on the mug.

I tried several export options for exporting from Fireworks (export graphics
only, css layers, html and images, and something about an mxml file which I
couldn't seem to open with any application on my computer!). They all come out
with banding and the drop looks weird to me. Compare these to exports from
Photoshop ...

http://admarkcom.com/comparison.html

Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on Fireworks. In fact, I'm going to
pursue additional online tutorials to get the best idea of what I can do with
this tool. However, if it is just a tool in which to make mock-ups which I can
import into Dreamweaver and "trace" over to get the disired results, I won't
use it. Yes, it can be a bit time-consuming to create a vector image in
CorelDRAW, export it as an EPS, open it in Photoshop and SAVE TO WEB, but I
have total control to size it, resize it, etc. and seem to have better control
over what the web-based GIF or JPG will look like.

windowswarrior wrote:
> I don't see that Fireworks can save as or export to a
> scalable EPS graphic.

png (the native file format) is vector based and scalable...you can also
save as AI.

Steve

windowswarrior wrote:
> [q]Originally posted by: JoeyD1978
> This article explains everything quite well:
>
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/firework...fireworks.html
>
> Fireworks isn't something you use in addition to Photoshop, it's something you
> use *instead* of Photoshop.
>
> __________________________________________________
>
> Visit my http://joedasilva.com/blog/ for tutorials and workflow techniques.
> [/q]
>
>
> The reason I marked Joey's post as "right on" as an answer to my post was the
> article he cited (link included above). It provides the necessary information
> to determine how Fireworks can fit into your work flow. As for whether or not I
> (or YOU) will use it, it's apparently a personal-choice decision ... hence the
> number of contradictory posts.
>
> I would also disagree with the assertion that Firewoks can replace Photoshop.
> My basis for that statement is my initial experience with the resolution of
> graphics coming out of Fireworks. Why create graphics at low resolution when
> you could have a print project in the future that needs 300 dpi graphics.. I
> would prefer to create my graphics in CorelDRAW or Illustrator and do photo
> work in Photoshop, scaling the work down and using the SAVE TO WEB export
> filter which I've tweaked to get very good results. That way, when projects
> requiring high-resolution graphics come up, I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel, so to speak. I don't see that Fireworks can save as or export to a
> scalable EPS graphic.
>
> Since my intial post, I've installed Fireworks and tried a couple of things. I
> went to Joey's blog (cited above) and tried the lessons. While I would have
> liked to have seen these blogs take me all the way through integration with
> Dreamweaver. I found them informative. Big Kudos to Joey for pointing me (and
> other readers of the blog) to two online resources for free/affordable type and
> stock photos!
>
> In the absence of instruction for integrating these graphics into a
> Dreamweaver design, I tried exporting the graphics at their partially finished
> state. The gradient band that he has employed in the header looks terrible
> coming out of Fireworks, as does the drop shadow on the mug.
>
> I tried several export options for exporting from Fireworks (export graphics
> only, css layers, html and images, and something about an mxml file which I
> couldn't seem to open with any application on my computer!). They all come out
> with banding and the drop looks weird to me. Compare these to exports from
> Photoshop ...
>
> http://admarkcom.com/comparison.html
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on Fireworks. In fact, I'm going to
> pursue additional online tutorials to get the best idea of what I can do with
> this tool. However, if it is just a tool in which to make mock-ups which I can
> import into Dreamweaver and "trace" over to get the disired results, I won't
> use it. Yes, it can be a bit time-consuming to create a vector image in
> CorelDRAW, export it as an EPS, open it in Photoshop and SAVE TO WEB, but I
> have total control to size it, resize it, etc. and seem to have better control
> over what the web-based GIF or JPG will look like.
>
>
You have total control over the export of your graphics in Fireworks.
What leads you to think otherwise?

Like any software, you need to give it your full attention for more than
a short period of time to appreciate what it can do and how it can help
your workflow. I am not sure where you got the idea to use Dreamweaver
to trace a full Fireworks design. Sounds like you picked up on a
buzzword. The workflow you describe for creating a vector image alone
can be cut down to one-quarter of the work, by creating the vectors in
Fireworks. You don't even need to leave the application, unless you are
doing some heavy duty bitmap image editing. You'll be amazed at the
things you can achieve if you take the time to get comfortable with the
program.

I speak from experience; I came from a Photoshop background (and yes I
still use it quite often for high res image editing or collages. I also
use Lightroom. Each application has its own strengths). I even teach PS
and FW in college. It took me about three weeks to really gain a
comfortable workflow. It doesn't have the same workflow as PS and that
was the main thing I had to understand. But it has a workflow which is
really suitable to web page design - or almost any screen based graphic
work, for that matter.

There is a wide range of excellent Fireworks tutorials out there:

Fireworkszone
www.fireworkszone.com

Adobe:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/fireworks/

Case in point, a three part series on taking an FW comp and turning it
into a CSS standards based layout in Dreamweaver:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/firework...youts_pt1.html

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/
http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/june2008/
http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2008/

Project Seven:
http://projectseven.com/tutorials/images/index.htm

Community MX:
http://www.communitymx.com/abstract.cfm?cid=ECAAF
which I am in the process of updating, is a list of all the FW tutorials
we have, some free, others low cost.

Lynda.com
www.lynda.com

And this is by no means an exhaustive list.


--
Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
http://www.communityMX.com/
CommunityMX - Free Resources:
http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
---
.:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
Adobe Community Expert
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---
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[q]Originally posted by: windowswarrior
In the absence of instruction for integrating these graphics into a
Dreamweaver design, I tried exporting the graphics at their partially finished
state. The gradient band that he has employed in the header looks terrible
coming out of Fireworks, as does the drop shadow on the mug.
[/q]
On your example it really does, and I'm not surprised. :-) When you export
gradient-images in any indexed format (PNG8, GIF), such banding will inevitably
occur. The Photoshop version nicely reduced - though not eliminated - those
bands, at the expense of a ~20% larger file. So you see, there is a trade-off,
one that's even completely unnecessary when you could just export an 80% JPEG
that preserves the gradients better than any GIF, at a filesize smaller than
either of the two GIF alternatives. When you try the Fireworks GIF exports on
images that are more suitable for GIF export (large areas of flat color,
defined edges etc.), the Fireworks advantage may become more apparent. :-)

Btw, for export comparisons I recommend using the 2Up and 4Up preview modes in
Fireworks (located right under the file title). In these preview modes, you can
compare various export options side-by-side, in terms of both image quality and
filesize. This handy option becomes even more useful when you have your own
export presets.

Also, Jim's post has some overall useful Fireworks resources, and this
particular article from Project Seven has a detailed explanation about
optimizing and exporting images in Fireworks. I hope that you'll find it
useful. :-)


SiamJai
~~~~
http://design.thaiwonders.com - Innovative Fireworks Tutorials

Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to further educate me. I have bookmarked all of the
sites you have suggested and will be visiting/reading/working as part of my
tutorial in not only Fireworks but the additional components of Adobe Design
Premium CS3 which I've just acquired.

I have also bought into Lynda.com, which I have used in the past and feel is a
premo product and great way to learn.

I think one of the problems, and what led to this post and my confusion, is
the way in which Adobe choose to distribute the Design Premium Package. I opted
to purchase the manuals with my software ... yet no manual was included for
either Fireworks or Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro. Since I've used Acrobat distiller for
many years, it is already an integral part of my workflow. Fireworks, however,
appeared to be an afterthought in this package; hence, my conclusion (albeit
initially) that this really wasn't an important piece of the pie.

I have since learned after speaking with an Adobe CS agent (that's Customer
Service) that the manuals I got are for CS3.0 yet the software is CS3.1 or
other. Therefore, there are no manuals ready as yet for either Fireworks or AA
PRO 9.0.

Providing customers with incomplete manuals seems shoddy. I am hoping that the
Fireworks portion of my package will arrive when available, but I'm not holding
my breath on that.

In the interim, I'll be plodding away with the online resources you and others
have graciously shared.

I also don't understand why Adobe has changed the elaborate graphics on intro
screens and program shortcut icons to primitive blocks with initials in them.
Adobe's customers (and software) is all about graphics, yet they've got the
most basic icons I think I've come across ... even since the days of 8-color
icons.

Kristi

Hi Kristi:

I hope you find the links useful and you can always post back here with
questions. Fireworks was not part of the initial Design Premium Suite,
an issue which customers made Adobe aware of quite clearly. As for the
manuals, are you referring to a PDF manual or an actual print version?
Personally, I think you will find much better resources online and on
Lynda.com. Tom Green has an entire series of Fireworks CS3 Essential
Training. Fireworks is not a hard app to learn, and once you get the
hang of it, you'll have a blast.

I can't remember if I mentioned this or not, but you might also want to
check out the Adobe Video Workshop.

--
Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
http://www.communityMX.com/
CommunityMX - Free Resources:
http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
---
.:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
Adobe Community Expert
http://tinyurl.com/2a7dyp
---
See my work on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_babbage/

I had the same reservations about purchasing FW; thought it was redundant when I already had PS; couldn't have been more wrong; FW has increased my productivity and confidence a million fold...