Investment account question

See inline...

"April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
news:%23VoVyUH6HHA.2752@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> My comment is inline below:
>
>> "April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
>> news:u77P$sf0HHA.4816@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> I'd probably setup the monthly recurring bill with both a unique Payee
>> and a unique Category. I'd use a Payee so I recognize the name and a
>> Category so that I got better reporting and so forth. Maybe a new top
>> level expense category like Pension Contributions or something similar.
>> If you type the name you want into the category field, Money will prompt
>> to make sure you want to create it if it doesn't already exist. Oh, and
>> noting that you aren't using Paychecks but assuming this comes out of
>> one, be careful adding this expense as the net deposit you made somewhere
>> will need to be "increased" by the amount of this new Expense transaction
>> you are going to enter in the same account or you will never get the
>> account balance to reconcile.
>>
> The pension does come out of a paycheck. What do you mean by :
> <<be careful adding
>> this expense as the net deposit you made somewhere will need to be
>> "increased" by the amount of this new Expense transaction you are going
>> to enter in the same account or you will never get the account balance to
>> reconcile. >>
> To clarify, do you mean that if I setup a new Bill/Deposit, I need to
> setup another account to make a 'Transfer'? What would you suggest a call
> the 2nd account? It's a little 'messy' as I'd preer to keep a minimum of
> accounts.....
>
> Or is it possible just to have one account, but you did say that this
> would "increase" my total amount.... Thanks again.

What I was cautioning you about is this scenario:

Deposit $500 from net deposit of paycheck to "Checking" Money Account but
don't track the gross income and all of the other deductions via the
"Paycheck" "special category" and all of its tabs and entries.

Add a $100 Pension Contributions Expense into "Checking" to account for the
"before the net" deduction from your paycheck. Since you didn't track the
gross income in the original deposit, now your checking balance is off by
this $100.

If, on the other hand, you split the net deposit of your paycheck into a
$600 Wages Net and a ($100) Pension Contributions this would make a $500 net
deposit and all would be good. Using Paycheck special category and all of
the other entries would probably be better.

pse see below:

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:uEC90SK6HHA.2752@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> See inline...
>
> "April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23VoVyUH6HHA.2752@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> My comment is inline below:
>>
>>> "April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:u77P$sf0HHA.4816@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> I'd probably setup the monthly recurring bill with both a unique Payee
>>> and a unique Category. I'd use a Payee so I recognize the name and a
>>> Category so that I got better reporting and so forth. Maybe a new top
>>> level expense category like Pension Contributions or something similar.
>>> If you type the name you want into the category field, Money will prompt
>>> to make sure you want to create it if it doesn't already exist. Oh, and
>>> noting that you aren't using Paychecks but assuming this comes out of
>>> one, be careful adding this expense as the net deposit you made
>>> somewhere will need to be "increased" by the amount of this new Expense
>>> transaction you are going to enter in the same account or you will never
>>> get the account balance to reconcile.
>>>
>> The pension does come out of a paycheck. What do you mean by :
>> <<be careful adding
>>> this expense as the net deposit you made somewhere will need to be
>>> "increased" by the amount of this new Expense transaction you are going
>>> to enter in the same account or you will never get the account balance
>>> to reconcile. >>
>> To clarify, do you mean that if I setup a new Bill/Deposit, I need to
>> setup another account to make a 'Transfer'? What would you suggest a
>> call the 2nd account? It's a little 'messy' as I'd preer to keep a
>> minimum of accounts.....
>>
>> Or is it possible just to have one account, but you did say that this
>> would "increase" my total amount.... Thanks again.
>
> What I was cautioning you about is this scenario:
>
> Deposit $500 from net deposit of paycheck to "Checking" Money Account but
> don't track the gross income and all of the other deductions via the
> "Paycheck" "special category" and all of its tabs and entries.
>
I do not wish to setup a deposit to the 'Checking' account. The reason is
that my pension contribution is taken from my pay before it reach my
'Checking' account.

> Add a $100 Pension Contributions Expense into "Checking" to account for
> the "before the net" deduction from your paycheck. Since you didn't track
> the gross income in the original deposit, now your checking balance is off
> by this $100.
>
I am not using the Paycheck funtion. My pension is deducted before the pay
reaches my 'Checking' account.

> If, on the other hand, you split the net deposit of your paycheck into a
> $600 Wages Net and a ($100) Pension Contributions this would make a $500
> net deposit and all would be good. Using Paycheck special category and all
> of the other entries would probably be better.
>
In your earlier response, you suggested setting up a recurring Bill with a
unique Payee and also a top level Category called 'Pension Contrubtion' and
a sub-category. I set this up a sub-category called "ABC Pension Company".
Is it correct to setup the contribution as an income or should it be an
expense?

When setting up the recurring bill, I am unsure as to what to enter in the
'Pay from ' box? Should I enter the "ABC Pension Company" account name
there? I have setup an account for the Pension.

"April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
news:eo9RtsM6HHA.3900@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> pse see below:
....
> I do not wish to setup a deposit to the 'Checking' account. The reason is
> that my pension contribution is taken from my pay before it reach my
> 'Checking' account.

Right. But now you have this money coming into a transaction that came from
where?

>> Add a $100 Pension Contributions Expense into "Checking" to account for
>> the "before the net" deduction from your paycheck. Since you didn't track
>> the gross income in the original deposit, now your checking balance is
>> off by this $100.
>>
> I am not using the Paycheck funtion. My pension is deducted before the
> pay reaches my 'Checking' account.

Right again. But you want to track this "deduction" without tracking what
it's deducted from. And that creates unique issues. That's all I'm trying to
advise you to beware of here.

>> If, on the other hand, you split the net deposit of your paycheck into a
>> $600 Wages Net and a ($100) Pension Contributions this would make a $500
>> net deposit and all would be good. Using Paycheck special category and
>> all of the other entries would probably be better.
>>
> In your earlier response, you suggested setting up a recurring Bill with a
> unique Payee and also a top level Category called 'Pension Contrubtion'
> and a sub-category. I set this up a sub-category called "ABC Pension
> Company". Is it correct to setup the contribution as an income or should
> it be an expense?

Let's get back to the original question: are you trying to track the pension
**account** or your **contributions** to this account? Note also that the
whole situation involves both Income and Expense and you've already said you
don't want to track the income (the gross pay in your paycheck and all of
the deductions, not just this one). The Income portion is that you got paid
the amount of this expense and you are not accounting for that by using
Deposits of net amount rather than Paychecks that account for all Income and
Expense (or Transfer) of that money before getting to the net amount you are
just depositing now.

My recollection of the whole setup here was that you really wanted to track
how much you were contributing and we'd agreed that collecting this as a
categorized Expense that you could then report on would meet the need.
(Reporting all transactions of category Pension Contributions, say.) See
below for more...

Now, is the pension contribution an Expense or a Transfer? It could be
either. As noted previously, IIRC, if the plan were something like a 401(k)
a Transfer seems in order. To the extent it's not, just calling it an
Expense for your current purposes in Money seems more appropriate. It's
kinda like a term life insurance deduction in that regard. You pay the money
now in hopes of seeing something in return someday. That sure sounds like an
Expense in the here and now to me.

As to a subcategory that mixes Payee with Income/Expense categorization, I'd
not do this. (I don't recall suggesting a subcategory for Pension
Contribution, but it's been a long thread.) Perhaps that's an item of
personal preference, but my rationale is this: say your employer changes the
pension plan provider ten times. Does it add any value to have to add the
next ten subcategories? No. It's still the exact same kind of expense.

> When setting up the recurring bill, I am unsure as to what to enter in the
> 'Pay from ' box? Should I enter the "ABC Pension Company" account name
> there? I have setup an account for the Pension.

1) As to account name for the account where you are entering this
transaction ("Pay From"), again, it depends. My recommendation, given the
other requirements you've identified chief among which is using a net
Deposit rather than Paycheck, would be to use a transaction with splits that
totaled to $0 but had both an Income (Wages:Pension Contrib or similar, say,
for $123.45 of Income, say) and an offsetting Expense (Pension Contribution
or similar, say, for -$123.45 of Expense) portion. Put the transaction in
any account that's convenient. (It's a $0 transaction, so it doesn't matter
where you put it because it doesn't change the balance of the account it's
in). If you wanted to put this in an account dedicated solely to these
transactions, that's perfectly OK. But read on:

2) Beyond a collection place for the $0 tracking purposes only transactions,
I wouldn't use an account for the Pension since it doesn't have a current
cash value to you and is not relevant to your net worth--or at least not in
any way directly relatable to the amounts you are trying to deposit there.
Say you contribute $20,000 to the plan this year. Does having this account
in Money with a $20,000 balance make your financial picture depicted by
Money more or less clear? I'd argue the latter by a long shot.

Perhaps this has been confusing so let me recap what I think my
recommendation is here, given that you don't want to track gross paychecks:

Create a recurring bill to collect the pension contribution expense with,
somehow, somewhere, corresponding income transactions to offset this expense
in the account where the transactions are to be entered. Virtually all else
has been details about how to accomplish this.

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply...I will review your comments and get
back to you.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:ODAR0VR6HHA.5212@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "April" <noreply@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:eo9RtsM6HHA.3900@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> pse see below:
> ...
>> I do not wish to setup a deposit to the 'Checking' account. The reason
>> is that my pension contribution is taken from my pay before it reach my
>> 'Checking' account.
>
> Right. But now you have this money coming into a transaction that came
> from where?
>
>>> Add a $100 Pension Contributions Expense into "Checking" to account for
>>> the "before the net" deduction from your paycheck. Since you didn't
>>> track the gross income in the original deposit, now your checking
>>> balance is off by this $100.
>>>
>> I am not using the Paycheck funtion. My pension is deducted before the
>> pay reaches my 'Checking' account.
>
> Right again. But you want to track this "deduction" without tracking what
> it's deducted from. And that creates unique issues. That's all I'm trying
> to advise you to beware of here.
>
>>> If, on the other hand, you split the net deposit of your paycheck into a
>>> $600 Wages Net and a ($100) Pension Contributions this would make a $500
>>> net deposit and all would be good. Using Paycheck special category and
>>> all of the other entries would probably be better.
>>>
>> In your earlier response, you suggested setting up a recurring Bill with
>> a unique Payee and also a top level Category called 'Pension Contrubtion'
>> and a sub-category. I set this up a sub-category called "ABC Pension
>> Company". Is it correct to setup the contribution as an income or should
>> it be an expense?
>
> Let's get back to the original question: are you trying to track the
> pension **account** or your **contributions** to this account? Note also
> that the whole situation involves both Income and Expense and you've
> already said you don't want to track the income (the gross pay in your
> paycheck and all of the deductions, not just this one). The Income portion
> is that you got paid the amount of this expense and you are not accounting
> for that by using Deposits of net amount rather than Paychecks that
> account for all Income and Expense (or Transfer) of that money before
> getting to the net amount you are just depositing now.
>
> My recollection of the whole setup here was that you really wanted to
> track how much you were contributing and we'd agreed that collecting this
> as a categorized Expense that you could then report on would meet the
> need. (Reporting all transactions of category Pension Contributions, say.)
> See below for more...
>
> Now, is the pension contribution an Expense or a Transfer? It could be
> either. As noted previously, IIRC, if the plan were something like a
> 401(k) a Transfer seems in order. To the extent it's not, just calling it
> an Expense for your current purposes in Money seems more appropriate. It's
> kinda like a term life insurance deduction in that regard. You pay the
> money now in hopes of seeing something in return someday. That sure sounds
> like an Expense in the here and now to me.
>
> As to a subcategory that mixes Payee with Income/Expense categorization,
> I'd not do this. (I don't recall suggesting a subcategory for Pension
> Contribution, but it's been a long thread.) Perhaps that's an item of
> personal preference, but my rationale is this: say your employer changes
> the pension plan provider ten times. Does it add any value to have to add
> the next ten subcategories? No. It's still the exact same kind of expense.
>
>> When setting up the recurring bill, I am unsure as to what to enter in
>> the 'Pay from ' box? Should I enter the "ABC Pension Company" account
>> name there? I have setup an account for the Pension.
>
> 1) As to account name for the account where you are entering this
> transaction ("Pay From"), again, it depends. My recommendation, given the
> other requirements you've identified chief among which is using a net
> Deposit rather than Paycheck, would be to use a transaction with splits
> that totaled to $0 but had both an Income (Wages:Pension Contrib or
> similar, say, for $123.45 of Income, say) and an offsetting Expense
> (Pension Contribution or similar, say, for -$123.45 of Expense) portion.
> Put the transaction in any account that's convenient. (It's a $0
> transaction, so it doesn't matter where you put it because it doesn't
> change the balance of the account it's in). If you wanted to put this in
> an account dedicated solely to these transactions, that's perfectly OK.
> But read on:
>
> 2) Beyond a collection place for the $0 tracking purposes only
> transactions, I wouldn't use an account for the Pension since it doesn't
> have a current cash value to you and is not relevant to your net worth--or
> at least not in any way directly relatable to the amounts you are trying
> to deposit there. Say you contribute $20,000 to the plan this year. Does
> having this account in Money with a $20,000 balance make your financial
> picture depicted by Money more or less clear? I'd argue the latter by a
> long shot.
>
> Perhaps this has been confusing so let me recap what I think my
> recommendation is here, given that you don't want to track gross
> paychecks:
>
> Create a recurring bill to collect the pension contribution expense with,
> somehow, somewhere, corresponding income transactions to offset this
> expense in the account where the transactions are to be entered. Virtually
> all else has been details about how to accomplish this.
>