Modula-2: what went wrong?

#21 04-20-2008, 11:10 AM

"Christoph Schlegel" <modula2@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:48939$480b4d19$557f970e$24899@news.inode.at.. .
> lk schrieb:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Therein lies the problem - m2 isn't and shouldn't be an oo language.
>
> Some time after the release of the base standard for ISO Modula-2, object
> orientation was also standardized. The project was called "JTC 1.22.18.02
> Object Oriented Extensions for Modula-2". From the ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG13
> Homepage (wich is "the international standardization working group for the
> programming language Modula-2"): "The model chosen for object oriented
> extensions has both modules and classes; has single inheritance and has
> multiple roots. The document has been published as ISO/IEC 10514-2:1998."
>
> As far as I know only p1 Modula-2
> (http://www.awiedemann.de/compiler/index.html) implements this extension.
>
> Or did you want to say in your opinion Modula-2 should not be an object
> oriented language?

Yes - that's what I'm saying. Some languages suit certain tasks better
than others and IMHO m2 should stick to what it does best - which IMHO isn't
oo.

#22 04-20-2008, 12:03 PM

lk schrieb:

[snip]

> Therein lies
> the problem - m2 isn't and shouldn't be an oo language.

Some time after the release of the base standard for ISO Modula-2,
object orientation was also standardized. The project was called "JTC
1.22.18.02 Object Oriented Extensions for Modula-2". From the ISO/IEC
JTC1/SC22/WG13 Homepage (wich is "the international standardization
working group for the programming language Modula-2"): "The model chosen
for object oriented extensions has both modules and classes; has single
inheritance and has multiple roots. The document has been published as
ISO/IEC 10514-2:1998."

As far as I know only p1 Modula-2
(http://www.awiedemann.de/compiler/index.html) implements this extension.

Or did you want to say in your opinion Modula-2 should not be an object
oriented language?

#23 04-20-2008, 07:44 PM

lk schrieb:
> "Christoph Schlegel" <modula2@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:48939$480b4d19$557f970e$24899@news.inode.at.. .
>> lk schrieb:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Therein lies the problem - m2 isn't and shouldn't be an oo language.
>> Some time after the release of the base standard for ISO Modula-2, object
>> orientation was also standardized. The project was called "JTC 1.22.18.02
>> Object Oriented Extensions for Modula-2". From the ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG13
>> Homepage (wich is "the international standardization working group for the
>> programming language Modula-2"): "The model chosen for object oriented
>> extensions has both modules and classes; has single inheritance and has
>> multiple roots. The document has been published as ISO/IEC 10514-2:1998."
>>
>> As far as I know only p1 Modula-2
>> (http://www.awiedemann.de/compiler/index.html) implements this extension.
>>
>> Or did you want to say in your opinion Modula-2 should not be an object
>> oriented language?
>
> Yes - that's what I'm saying. Some languages suit certain tasks better
> than others and IMHO m2 should stick to what it does best - which IMHO isn't
> oo.
>

That is what I thought until there was the success of Turbo Pascal 5.5+,
but I never tried to program object oriented in Modula-2 (there was no
Turbo Vision) - I tend to share your point of view out of a feeling. Are
there any people out there who program oo Modula-2?

#24 04-20-2008, 09:31 PM

Greetings,
When I wrote -

> > What might it look like? Well - if anyone is interested -
> > http://srv.asgard.docs/esk.txt is my version of a compiler for my new
> > language!! All a bit tongue-in-cheek of course!

Jim Granville <no.spam@designtools.maps.co.nz> wrote:

> The link does not work ?

Call that a typo??? Ouch! Mea culpa!

The link should have been http://srv.asgard.org.nz/docs/esk.txt

Sorry! I've been out of e-mail contact over the weekend so
my apologies for delay/errors, etc.

Keith

--
Sky Development

#25 04-21-2008, 06:46 AM

On 2008-04-20, lk <gofyself@wrong.address.com> wrote:

(some random remarks, not necessarily entirely on topic)

> My own view is that where possible, you use the best tool for the job. I'm
> not a C programmer, but if I were, I'd use gcc on a UNIX box.

I too, but only when making a system utility, not creating an application by
a fulltime programmer. GCC, and even C at large, was never designed for that.

> If I wanted to do something graphics intensive,
> I'd head for OpenGL on a Mac.

Extending the same reasoning as with Unix, in Objective C ?

#26 04-21-2008, 12:11 PM

On 2008-04-20, jguthrie@brokersys.com <jguthrie@brokersys.com> wrote:
> I have access to a staggering variety of languages that are prepackaged,
> which come with extensive library support, which are not part of the GCC,
> and which are all available for me to install with the click of a mouse.
> Mercury and Haskell and ML and the really cool Smalltalk system called
> Squeak and the parallel language Erlang and at least four different
> flavors of Lisp. Heck, there's even a Pascal. (Two, actually, but one
> is part of the GCC.)

Yes. And if I win the lottery I'm still going to implement a M2 frontend to Free
Pascal. :-)

Free Pascal is btw link compatible to gcc (iow one can statically link in
gcc libraries) Don't forget to also check for "Lazarus" (http://Lazarus.freepascal.org). It
might look familiar from somewhere.

The GNU Pascal one is quite silent nowadays. However the project is not
really open to inside peeks (having no public RCS or snapshotting system),
so I could be wrong.

> language like Modula-2 (or even C, C++, and the like) that you do with a
> scripting language because the barrier to entry is so low with a
> scripting language. Any fool can program in them, and most of them do.
> Anyway, it's not a fair comparison. However, if you want to know what
> a robust user community looks like, that's it.

Hmm, I've seen some complaints about people that try to really base
themselves on scripting languages. Nearly all relating to large scale, and
long term use though. It would be logical that that is not the real use case
for scripting languages, but those usercommunities seem to suggest it is.

#27 04-21-2008, 01:18 PM

> Hmm, I've seen some complaints about people that try to really base
> themselves on scripting languages. Nearly all relating to large scale, and
> long term use though. It would be logical that that is not the real use case
> for scripting languages, but those usercommunities seem to suggest it is.

My own view is that the success of a programming language nowadays is
as much a social issue as technical one. Ruby, Perl and PHP have
wonderfully supportive communities surrounding them. I've sometimes
felt that there was an atmosphere of intolerance round the Pascal
family.

BTW, can someone change the thread title back to "What Went Wrong?"
please, or something similar? I'm posting from Google and don't see
how to do that.

#28 04-21-2008, 02:06 PM

On 2008-04-21, graham.kerr.stark@googlemail.com <graham.stark@virtual-worlds.biz> wrote:
>> Hmm, I've seen some complaints about people that try to really base
>> themselves on scripting languages. Nearly all relating to large scale, and
>> long term use though. It would be logical that that is not the real use case
>> for scripting languages, but those usercommunities seem to suggest it is.
>
> My own view is that the success of a programming language nowadays is
> as much a social issue as technical one. Ruby, Perl and PHP have
> wonderfully supportive communities surrounding them. I've sometimes
> felt that there was an atmosphere of intolerance round the Pascal
> family.

I recognize that, and it is similar with e.g. C (where you constantly got
flamed over standards details, C and POSIX).

But I think that is pretty explainable that the scripting languages groups
are more homogenous than e.g. C of Pascal in the days of yore. Most of them
are not really programmers, but people customizing some framework for own
use, rather than fulltime programmers creating software.

See also the remark in prev post about problems for larger apps before. They
don't fit in -> friction.

> BTW, can someone change the thread title back to "What Went Wrong?"
> please, or something similar? I'm posting from Google and don't see
> how to do that.

Done.

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