struggling with Design -Paradigms - Object

"Jerry Coffin" <jcoffin{}taeus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.204d6bba794fd6f7989884{}news.sunsite.dk...

> [ ... ]
>
>> Go with what works. Given that no one is investing much effort in new
>> developments for C++, all those C++ jobs may very well be maintainece
>> positions. If that's what you want, go for it.
>
> Upon what basis do you consider this a given?

No valid basis in fact. Rumor and gut only. I respectfully withdraw that
comment.


--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--

Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:
> <snip>
> Languages, inasmuch as they express thought, also mold it.
"It's interesting that it takes an earth-shaking experience — like
becoming test-infected or learning a different kind of language — to
cause a re-evaluation of beliefs." -- Bruce Eckel

That is why, Nick, I think it's important for people to choose languages
carefully and not just work with whatever is most popular. I tend to
think of my problems in the languages I know, and the more expressive
they are the more expressive my understanding of both the problem and
its solution may be.

--
Visit <http://blogs.instreamfinancial.com/anything.php>
to read my rants on technology and the finance industry.

Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:

> Go with what works. Given that no one is investing much effort in new
> developments for C++, all those C++ jobs may very well be maintainece
> positions. If that's what you want, go for it.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why is Microsoft investing much more
in C++ than in C# these days?

--
mail1dotstofanetdotdk

> On Feb 27, 3:38 pm, "Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <nickma...{}hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> Your remarks are offensive and condescending. I'm reacting late at night.
> I will keep my temper in check as best I can. I am human.
[/OT]
please do not get a temper. you came tired from work. you could have
ignored my post easily. when i wrote my intentions i was not angry,
not even 1%. i say sorry if my words arouse anger in you.
[/OT]

> First off, I do not believe that it is fair to say that Microsoft is "best
> known" for producing "3rd class software." For each software title that you
> consider third class, you are welcome to suggest a "first class" example.
> However, there are many different measures of what makes software "good."
> While the measuring stick used by various Microsoft product teams may not be
> the same as yours, it is nearly always competitive and rational. While I
> stipulate that Microsoft doesn't often create a cutting edge v1.0 product,
> the products we do create are stable, with relatively few defects, and we
> rarely walk away from a customer. That is hardly "3rd class software." To
> call successful, profitable, well established products "3rd class" is
> intentionally insulting.

[OT]
i wanted to *avoid* any OT thing, but anyway, only 2 lines:

go to someone's home who uses Windows (99% he will be using a pirated
CD but that is not my point) and ask him how many times Windows hung
and went unstable and how much he fears of Viruses.

you will get the answer, quite opposite to your "with relatively few
defects"

1st, i can explain all the problems but as i said that is going highly
OT. i only want to say that i have used Windows for 4 years and using
Linux only from last 1 year. i wrote from experience.

2nd, i do not want to you get in temper. Temper kills Common-Sense i
want you to read this when you will be carrying a normal-mind
[/OT]

> Secondly, to say that Mr. Gates "ordered" anyone to do anything is to
> demonstrate a massive misunderstanding of how large corporations work.

[OT]
i think, he is the one who owns Microsoft. i *did* work for 2 MNCs.
Corporation are not here to do human or technological development or
to help any country and that country's men to grow. they are here to
make money, at any cost, whether the cost is employees or human
generation. Exactly opposite to how Scientists think.


> I
> have worked at many, and I've never seen a CEO "order" anyone to do anything
> that produced a useful result. In Microsoft, as in most successful
> companies in the USA, our corporate leaders believe in leadership, not
> command and control. They rarely, if ever, "order".

i did not intend *command* and *control*, sorry for being unclear. i
meant, you *have* to do what your "pointy-haired boss" says to you,
whether it harms the company or profits the company, doesn't matter,
otherwise, you will get fired. so what you will call that. it's an
order.
[/OT]

> I have a healthy respect for people who do not use the same software
> platforms as I do. I even have respect for people who are willing to make a
> rational case for why their measurements of "goodness" are more appropriate
> than the ones used by the Microsoft product teams (where I do not work).

[OT]

i did NOT disrespect you. i do say that majority of Windows users do
not possess any Common-Sense when it comes to even understanding how
to use an OS effectively according to one's daily needs.

[/OT]


> Oh, and those products that are not "technically good..." run on about 90%
> of all personal computers worldwide.

[OT]
99% of Indians also say that "General Dwyer", killed thousands of men,
women and children in Jaliawala Bagh" in Amritsar, India.

do you believe them ?

95% of Indians and at least 70% of this world believe in ghosts and
most of these people have seen ghosts.

do you believe them ?

[/OT]


> I guess that "technically" is not the
> only definition of "good" that should be considered in the equation, should it?

[/OT]
If a software is not sane technically, there could be many reasons but
in corporate, most of the times it is because the owner designed it
purely for the purpose of "money-generation" and nothing else.

i could speak more but NO. it is OT

[/OT]

> Don't get me wrong. I am a firm believer that we should be able to
> trust our software to keep our information safe, secure, and available.

yes, these are the characteristics of good software.

> But
> I don't believe in technical purity for its own sake. BTW: IMHO: Apple is
> better at brand development than Microsoft is.

[OT]
i do not agree with that. Even if today, Microsoft launches
Motorcycles with "leak-able petrol tanks" and "worn-out spark-plugs",
Microsoft will sell them. You will see those Motorcycles in every
home, and 90% of the population will really use those motorcycles. as
you may know, success of a product does not depend on its technical-
purity, both, reasons and risks, are non-technical.
[/OT]


> The only word in brackets is the name of my employer. Do you believe that
> it is not inflammatory to refer to my employer as a "devil" when you have
> demonstrated, proudly, a lack of knowledge or understanding of what it means
> to work there? This is another example of intentionally casting insults.
> There is no room for this kind of name-calling in a civilized conversation.

[OT]

i do not want to work for Bill Gates like i do not want to work for SS
[1]

yes, you are right. i am not impressed with your employer's business
practices, for he is obstructing human-development with his business
practices, not sure for what reason.
[/OT]


> This is the last I will say on the topic of your clear and demonstrable
> prejudice against one of the leading software and programming tools
> companies.

[OT]
what you *think* or *see* as prejudice, is simply Common-Sense, what
90% of this world never understands. i have a simple philosophy:
"Observe the masses and think the opposite". unfortunately it is also
known as "Common Sesne" and *logical-thinking* is the *hardest* thing
to do. trust me.

People still think we Indians, ourselves, with our own effort, removed
the British Rule from India. i do not agree with such lies. among
those, who speak *that* truth, are those who throw Acids on girl's
faces just because they wear Jeans.

[/OT]


> You can find whatever employment you wish, on or off of the
> Microsoft platform.

[/OT]
Malik, trust me, i really respect you and it does not mean that must
respect the persons you respect, without any ****ysis.
[/OT]


> I continue to wish you luck in your endeavers.

YES, i expected that

> However, I do not believe I shall make much effort to provide you with any
> more guidance or advice.

[/OT]
i also expected that and will not comment on that. all i say, that
India is a high-tech country, as most people say everyday, and BSNL's
broadband connection does not support "24 hour on modem connection" in
some regions. 90% of pouplation who boast of high-tech India does not
even know of the basic facts.


Have you ever tried to think what SS and Jaliawala Bagh and high-tech
India have in common with ghosts and Jeans

.....think hard,


.............after some days, try my BLOG

[/OT]

> Good Luck.

thanks for that :-)


-- arnuld
http:blogspot.com

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS

In article <w-ednfJOpcZMknnYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d{}comcast.com>,
nickmalik{}hotmail.nospam.com says...

[ ... ]

> I admit to being unclear. It should be clear, now, that our positions are
> fairly similar in many respects. (A few key differences, but nothing
> diametrically opposite).

It does sound that way. I apologize if my original stance sounded
militant or denigrating -- I didn't mean it that way, but rereading it,
I can see how it could (easily) be taken that way, and if so I do
apologize.

[ ... ]

> Perhaps my experience has simply been different from yours. I've met both
> the "proficient" and the "excellent". Desire, passion, motivation are all
> key to getting to any level of proficiency. Recognition is usually a major
> motivator for these folks, so ego shows up as well. However, in none of the
> cases where someone had desire and passion could I reasonably predict
> success, nor could I say that a lack of ego was a predictor of failure. You
> have to love the code. Loving yourself is tangential at best.

Hmmm...it does sound like there are differences in our experience. In my
own experience, while it's often fairly difficult to tell the really
good from the good, the truly superb seem to show up _very_ quickly. I
suppose some may not have known it themselves, but certainly almost
everybody around them did.

> Therefore, to ask someone with no formal training, and a year and a half of
> LISP, if he thinks he can be a good developer, is pointless and potentially
> misleading.

I can't say I really agree, but I don't really have anything new to add
either, so perhaps it's best to just agree to disagree on this one.

[ ... ]

> Two questions come to mind:
> 1) when you were exploring, were you working in technology?

Some, but mostly not.

> 2) How long, after you chose your first technology, before you changed your
> mind?

That's a bit hard to say -- I've never really had any major "about
faces" or anything like that, but certainly my ideas have grown and
changed over time. I doubt my whole outlook on development has survived
intact for an entire week, but there's still a pretty obvious similarity
between what I do now, and hacking I did on the school's Control Data
mainframe, all the way back in college...

> Most folks choose what they "think" they want, and change their mind within
> a year of starting. So, how important, in hindsight, was all that "relative
> certainty" to the next set of choices you made?

Well, it held up pretty well for me. I know some other people with
pretty similar experiences, but I'll openly admit I don't know enough
people (in either direction) to claim it's any more than anecdotal
evidence.

[ ... ]

> I certainly have no cause to doubt your experiences. I have heard many
> stories like this from others as well. At this point in your career, I'm
> sure you have reached the point where you trust yourself, and what you know,

That's where my ego probably played a part -- even in my first semester
of college, I never really doubted myself. I probably _should_ have, but
I didn't. :-) If anything, I probably trust myself less now -- thinking
back on some of what I (and my friends) did, it's hard to believe we
dove up to our elbows in multi-million dollar machines without a second
thought, hacking the hardware as much as the software, soldering away
immediately after spending a few hours at the Red Garter Saloon, and all
manner of "stuff" I wouldn't even consider today...

> because you've likely invested the time and effort needed to truly excell in
> some part of your chosen field or technology. Perhaps I'm surprised that
> you chose that particular field or technology before you received your first
> paycheck.
>
> If that is the case, you are rare indeed.

I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I suppose it may be a matter
of viewpoint as much as anything else. To anybody else, there's probably
no resemblance at all, but to me it's easy to see a thread between some
code I wrote this afternoon, and an algorithm I worked out for the
Rubik's cube 25 years ago or so... :-)

--
Later,
Jerry.

The universe is a figment of its own imagination.

"arnuld" <geek.arnuld{}> wrote in message
news:1172605520.116681.106010{}z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 27, 3:38 pm, "Nick Malik [Microsoft]"
>> <nickma...{}hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
>> I have a healthy respect for people who do not use the same software
>> platforms as I do. I even have respect for people who are willing to
>> make a
>> rational case for why their measurements of "goodness" are more
>> appropriate
>> than the ones used by the Microsoft product teams (where I do not work).
>
> [OT]
>
> i did NOT disrespect you. i do say that majority of Windows users do
> not possess any Common-Sense when it comes to even understanding how
> to use an OS effectively according to one's daily needs.
>
> [/OT]

Tell you what. You go ahead and insult the majority of computer users.
While you are busy insulting them, I'll sell them software.

We shall see how you measure success.

>> Oh, and those products that are not "technically good..." run on about
>> 90%
>> of all personal computers worldwide.
>
> [OT]
> 99% of Indians also say that "General Dwyer", killed thousands of men,
> women and children in Jaliawala Bagh" in Amritsar, India.
>
> do you believe them ?

um... yes. General Dwyer admitted doing it. They pulled bodies out of the
well, for goodness sake. It was mass murder.


>
> 95% of Indians and at least 70% of this world believe in ghosts and
> most of these people have seen ghosts.
>
> do you believe them ?

I have no reason not to.

>> But
>> I don't believe in technical purity for its own sake. BTW: IMHO: Apple
>> is
>> better at brand development than Microsoft is.
>
> [OT]
> i do not agree with that. Even if today, Microsoft launches
> Motorcycles with "leak-able petrol tanks" and "worn-out spark-plugs",
> Microsoft will sell them.

that is not a result of branding. You clearly have no understanding of how
marketing works. Not that I'm surprised.


>
>> The only word in brackets is the name of my employer. Do you believe
>> that
>> it is not inflammatory to refer to my employer as a "devil" when you have
>> demonstrated, proudly, a lack of knowledge or understanding of what it
>> means
>> to work there? This is another example of intentionally casting insults.
>> There is no room for this kind of name-calling in a civilized
>> conversation.
>
> [OT]
>
> i do not want to work for Bill Gates like i do not want to work for SS

Your comparison is unwarranted, inflammatory, and foolish.


> [1]
>
> yes, you are right. i am not impressed with your employer's business
> practices, for he is obstructing human-development with his business
> practices, not sure for what reason.

I disagree. He is far better than most other businessmen, and his business
practices do not harm common men and women(although many would say that
Microsoft has harmed other corporations... they are still paying for that).
So what does Mr. Gates do with all that money? Expensive vacations?
Extravagant birthday parties? No. He tries to vaccinate children, and
educate poor people, and fund the construction of basic educational
infrastructure. I guess that means he's obstructing human development in
your eyes. I wonder what you say about other high-tech business leaders,
most of whom do none of those things.


> [/OT]
>
>
>> This is the last I will say on the topic of your clear and demonstrable
>> prejudice against one of the leading software and programming tools
>> companies.
>
> [OT]
> what you *think* or *see* as prejudice, is simply Common-Sense, what
> 90% of this world never understands. i have a simple philosophy:
> "Observe the masses and think the opposite".

You must think that the world is flat. After all, the masses believe it is
round.

Choosing the opposite of popular thinking is not wisdom.
It demonstrates the same lack of thoughtfulness as simply agreeing with the
masses.

>
> People still think we Indians, ourselves, with our own effort, removed
> the British Rule from India.

The Indians had some help from the Brits themselves, but for the most part,
those people are right... the Indians did remove British rule from India.

> i do not agree with such lies. among
> those, who speak *that* truth, are those who throw Acids on girl's
> faces just because they wear Jeans.

Odd comparison. You don't spend much time actually thinking, do you? I can
see why your grades were so poor and why you consider "hacking" to be an art
form.


>
> Have you ever tried to think what SS and Jaliawala Bagh and high-tech
> India have in common with ghosts and Jeans
>

they are twisted together in a mass conspiracy in your deranged mind?

> ....think hard,
>
>
> ............after some days, try my BLOG

I did. David Koresh used to write like you do. So did Jim Jones.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--

> On Feb 28, 11:34 am, Jerry Coffin <jcof...{}taeus.com> wrote:


> That's a bit hard to say -- I've never really had any major "about
> faces" or anything like that, but certainly my ideas have grown and
> changed over time. I doubt my whole outlook on development has survived
> intact for an entire week, but there's still a pretty obvious similarity
> between what I do now, and hacking I did on the school's Control Data
> mainframe, all the way back in college...

yes, i do observe such things in "growing men"


> That's where my ego probably played a part -- even in my first semester
> of college, I never really doubted myself. I probably _should_ have, but
> I didn't. :-) If anything, I probably trust myself less now -- thinking
> back on some of what I (and my friends) did, it's hard to believe we
> dove up to our elbows in multi-million dollar machines without a second
> thought, hacking the hardware as much as the software, soldering away
> immediately after spending a few hours at the Red Garter Saloon, and all
> manner of "stuff" I wouldn't even consider today...

WOW!, good to hear this

:-)


> I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I suppose it may be a matter
> of viewpoint as much as anything else. To anybody else, there's probably
> no resemblance at all, but to me it's easy to see a thread between some
> code I wrote this afternoon, and an algorithm I worked out for the
> Rubik's cube 25 years ago or so... :-)

there *is* a thread, i can notice it and , i have always noticed the
same in the behaviour and thinking of great men (like Bruce Lee &
Abraham Lincoln)

-- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogspot.com

On Feb 28, 11:51 am, "Nick Malik [Microsoft]"
<nickma...{}hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> "arnuld" <geek.arn...{}> wrote in message
>
> news:1172605520.116681.106010{}z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> On Feb 27, 3:38 pm, "Nick Malik [Microsoft]"
> >> <nickma...{}hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> >> I have a healthy respect for people who do not use the same software
> >> platforms as I do. I even have respect for people who are willing to
> >> make a
> >> rational case for why their measurements of "goodness" are more
> >> appropriate
> >> than the ones used by the Microsoft product teams (where I do not work).
>
> > [OT]
>
> > i did NOT disrespect you. i do say that majority of Windows users do
> > not possess any Common-Sense when it comes to even understanding how
> > to use an OS effectively according to one's daily needs.
>
> > [/OT]
>
> Tell you what. You go ahead and insult the majority of computer users.
> While you are busy insulting them, I'll sell them software.
>
> We shall see how you measure success.
>
> >> Oh, and those products that are not "technically good..." run on about
> >> 90%
> >> of all personal computers worldwide.
>
> > [OT]
> > 99% of Indians also say that "General Dwyer", killed thousands of men,
> > women and children in Jaliawala Bagh" in Amritsar, India.
>
> > do you believe them ?
>
> um... yes. General Dwyer admitted doing it. They pulled bodies out of the
> well, for goodness sake. It was mass murder.
>
>
>
> > 95% of Indians and at least 70% of this world believe in ghosts and
> > most of these people have seen ghosts.
>
> > do you believe them ?
>
> I have no reason not to.
>
> >> But
> >> I don't believe in technical purity for its own sake. BTW: IMHO: Apple
> >> is
> >> better at brand development than Microsoft is.
>
> > [OT]
> > i do not agree with that. Even if today, Microsoft launches
> > Motorcycles with "leak-able petrol tanks" and "worn-out spark-plugs",
> > Microsoft will sell them.
>
> that is not a result of branding. You clearly have no understanding of how
> marketing works. Not that I'm surprised.
>
>
>
> >> The only word in brackets is the name of my employer. Do you believe
> >> that
> >> it is not inflammatory to refer to my employer as a "devil" when you have
> >> demonstrated, proudly, a lack of knowledge or understanding of what it
> >> means
> >> to work there? This is another example of intentionally casting insults.
> >> There is no room for this kind of name-calling in a civilized
> >> conversation.
>
> > [OT]
>
> > i do not want to work for Bill Gates like i do not want to work for SS
>
> Your comparison is unwarranted, inflammatory, and foolish.
>
> > [1]
>
> > yes, you are right. i am not impressed with your employer's business
> > practices, for he is obstructing human-development with his business
> > practices, not sure for what reason.
>
> I disagree. He is far better than most other businessmen, and his business
> practices do not harm common men and women(although many would say that
> Microsoft has harmed other corporations... they are still paying for that).
> So what does Mr. Gates do with all that money? Expensive vacations?
> Extravagant birthday parties? No. He tries to vaccinate children, and
> educate poor people, and fund the construction of basic educational
> infrastructure. I guess that means he's obstructing human development in
> your eyes. I wonder what you say about other high-tech business leaders,
> most of whom do none of those things.
>
> > [/OT]
>
> >> This is the last I will say on the topic of your clear and demonstrable
> >> prejudice against one of the leading software and programming tools
> >> companies.
>
> > [OT]
> > what you *think* or *see* as prejudice, is simply Common-Sense, what
> > 90% of this world never understands. i have a simple philosophy:
> > "Observe the masses and think the opposite".
>
> You must think that the world is flat. After all, the masses believe it is
> round.
>
> Choosing the opposite of popular thinking is not wisdom.
> It demonstrates the same lack of thoughtfulness as simply agreeing with the
> masses.
>
>
>
> > People still think we Indians, ourselves, with our own effort, removed
> > the British Rule from India.
>
> The Indians had some help from the Brits themselves, but for the most part,
> those people are right... the Indians did remove British rule from India.
>
> > i do not agree with such lies. among
> > those, who speak *that* truth, are those who throw Acids on girl's
> > faces just because they wear Jeans.
>
> Odd comparison. You don't spend much time actually thinking, do you? I can
> see why your grades were so poor and why you consider "hacking" to be an art
> form.
>
>
>
> > Have you ever tried to think what SS and Jaliawala Bagh and high-tech
> > India have in common with ghosts and Jeans
>
> they are twisted together in a mass conspiracy in your deranged mind?
>
> > ....think hard,
>
> > ............after some days, try my BLOG
>
> I did. David Koresh used to write like you do. So did Jim Jones.
>
> --
> --- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
> MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
> http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik
>
> Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
> representative of my employer.
> I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
> programmer helping programmers.
> --

[OT]
i can take this towards a never ending debate but i do not want to do
that. i will leave it here
[/OT]