Re: Brandon's Law

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>>
>> I figured this would happen. I like being the devil's advocate, just
>> for the sake of dropping the bomb...
>
> Interesting philosophy of discourse. I can't say I've ever run into a
> "Stealth Devil" before. :-)

Influences of The Matrix, I s'ppose... (by golly, does this movie suck,
or what?)

>> Seriously, what I'm trying to say is that I'm standing at the most
>> extreme point you're trying to make. But I do acknowledge it's not
>> safe, unorthodox, and therefore unfair of me to lecture any newbie to
>> follow my path. I consider my career somewhat unique (not alone in
>> the universe, but certainly unorthodox), and I understand this is not
>> for everyone, to say the least.
>
> Are you willing to be more specific about your career path? I don't
> think it's credible to make general pronouncements of "I've found a
> way to succeed, it's very different from what everyone else does, it
> definitely worked in my case, but it won't work in yours." You might
> be biased as to how unique your path is or how doable it is for
> others. Certainly, I don't see the point in promoting mythologies of
> necessary status quo, even if one ultimately chooses status quo
> techniques. It smacks of self-censorship.

I "have'nt found a way to succeed". I'm successful, because I do well
personally. If I chose another path, I may have been successful as well.
There's no mythology there, I make games on demand for large corporations
(but not for the web). I do it alone (programming at least). I have no
formal education. These are the kind of things Tom Sloper would wave both
his hands as a big no no for an early career path. I also make about a dozen
games a year.

>> I think you can take a look at
>> yourself, and see that you represent only a marginal force in the
>> industry.
>
> And mainstream worker bees are powerful forces in the industry how,
> exactly?

By being the majority, Brandon. It's called "the power of the masses". By
giving bees as an example, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot. I
guess you're Winnie the Pooh, then. Just remember who got stung...

>> I salute you for walking your own path, but you don't offer
>> any employment opportunities for others, just vague possibilities.
>
> There's nothing vague about saying "go to mud-dev and ask about Python
> jobs." There's nothing vague about saying "talk to Microsoft about
> C# game jobs." I'm sure they'd be interested in tools development if
> nothing else. There's nothing vague about going after J2ME mobile
> gaming jobs. I don't know where you're getting this "vagueness" idea
> from, unless you think I'm going to personally do all the jobhunting
> for someone.

"Go mud-dev" more niche than vague. People usually first think of games as
"Tetris", "Space Invaders", "Halo" etc., not mud... Asking MS about game
jobs is also vague as a career decision.

> You have a fundamental choice you can make about your career. You
> can be pushy and in charge of it, make decisions about what you want
> to learn and what you want to do. You can be a technology leader, a
> forerunner / early adopter, and become an expert who calls the shots.
> Or, you can let other people tell you what to do. Your decision.
> The former often takes more work than the latter, but some people due
> to temperament would not have it any other way. It's actually harder
> for certain people to be in someone else's cage, they'd sooner suffer
> the slings and arrows to do what they want.

It certainly seems to me it's not Python which got your attention, but some
sort of self-awareness course. I think that when somebody asks others for
their opinions, it means he is not the kind of person to push himself
forward. I believe you haven't asked any questions when you were younger,
and neither have I. That's why we're different. Not better, just different.

> For instance, if you want to do Python game development, then you
> learn Python and you go chase Python game jobs. You accept the
> consequences of that decision: you aren't going to be able to pick as
> wide a range of projects, companies, or geographical locations if you
> want those jobs. You may have to dig harder to find them. But you
> can certainly get those jobs, if you're motivated to do things "the
> Python way." And I think J2ME is easier to get into, and C# is
> easier still (remember, people use .NET to write tools). There's
> more commercial demand within gaming for both of those.

But why on earth take the risk in the first place? You can learn C++, get to
a point where you're ok with it, get a starter job and advance while
working. A lot of jobs are like that. (Note: "A lot"!)

> What we can agree on, is there are more C++ jobs out there in the game
> industry right now than anything else. This does not mean that Java,
> C#, and Python jobs are absent.

I believe that by saying that earlier, you could have avoided all the
flames, and many more people could join our civilized conversation right
now. (But that's ok, I'm having a good time discussing this just with you...
)

> Where we may differ, is the relative importance of Java, C#, and
> Python for the computer industry *in general*. Here's one set of
> numbers recently dumped on the marketing-python list:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/infoworld/i...rrcode-in2.gif
>
> Which Programming Languages Do You and Your Engineers Use for
> Development?
>
> Java 56%
> Visual Basic 52%
> C++ 49%
> JavaScript 47%
> shell script 41%
> C 37%
> Perl 34%
> C# 23%
> PHP 16%
> other 16%
> Python 8%
>
> From this one easily concludes that you certainly don't have to know
> C++.

Sure, If you're gonna do web development and DBs. I haven't seen "games" in
the list, tho. Point is still moot.

g

G.I.L wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> I "have'nt found a way to succeed". I'm successful, because I do well
> personally. If I chose another path, I may have been successful as
> well. There's no mythology there, I make games on demand for large
> corporations (but not for the web). I do it alone (programming at
> least). I have no formal education. These are the kind of things Tom
> Sloper would wave both his hands as a big no no for an early career
> path. I also make about a dozen games a year.

So sayeth the not-a-worker-bee.

>>> I think you can take a look at yourself, and see that you
>>> represent only a marginal force in the industry.
>>
>> And mainstream worker bees are powerful forces in the industry how,
>> exactly?
>
> By being the majority, Brandon. It's called "the power of the
> masses". By giving bees as an example, you're actually shooting
> yourself in the foot. I guess you're Winnie the Pooh, then. Just
> remember who got stung...

I have trouble seeing worker bees as powerful forces. They strike me as
inertial forces.

> "Go mud-dev" more niche than vague. People usually first think of
> games as "Tetris", "Space Invaders", "Halo" etc., not mud... Asking
> MS about game jobs is also vague as a career decision.

Really. How vague can it be when MS and Nintendo are locked for the #2
console spot? MS publishes *lots* of games. Are you just hand waving away
the fact that MS is a big player in the game industry?



>> You have a fundamental choice you can make about your career. You
>> can be pushy and in charge of it, make decisions about what you want
>> to learn and what you want to do. You can be a technology leader, a
>> forerunner / early adopter, and become an expert who calls the shots.
>> Or, you can let other people tell you what to do. Your decision.
>> The former often takes more work than the latter, but some people due
>> to temperament would not have it any other way. It's actually harder
>> for certain people to be in someone else's cage, they'd sooner suffer
>> the slings and arrows to do what they want.
>
> It certainly seems to me it's not Python which got your attention,
> but some sort of self-awareness course. I think that when somebody
> asks others for their opinions, it means he is not the kind of person
> to push himself forward. I believe you haven't asked any questions
> when you were younger, and neither have I. That's why we're
> different. Not better, just different.

Interesting guess at my character. It's probably true, I have no memory of
ever looking for mentors. I was almost entirely self-taught in 3D graphics,
I only had 1 course in it back in college. But... just because someone asks
a question for guidance, doesn't mean they're a sheep. We shouldn't
self-edit and give advice on how to be good little sheep. Rather, we should
lay out what the options and the consequences are.

For instance, what are the negative consequences of focusing on C++ ?
- it has a horrible learning curve as one gets deeper into the language
- it is cumbersome when projects are complicated and higher level
- it's not the brightest star of commercial value anymore
- in 5 years it will be fading, and other languages will be rising to
prominence

>> For instance, if you want to do Python game development, then you
>> learn Python and you go chase Python game jobs. You accept the
>> consequences of that decision: you aren't going to be able to pick as
>> wide a range of projects, companies, or geographical locations if you
>> want those jobs. You may have to dig harder to find them. But you
>> can certainly get those jobs, if you're motivated to do things "the
>> Python way." And I think J2ME is easier to get into, and C# is
>> easier still (remember, people use .NET to write tools). There's
>> more commercial demand within gaming for both of those.
>
> But why on earth take the risk in the first place? You can learn C++,
> get to a point where you're ok with it, get a starter job and advance
> while working. A lot of jobs are like that. (Note: "A lot"!)

What risk? The risk of knowing that you want to do MMOG games and need to
go to mud-dev to find those jobs? The risk of sending your resume to
Microsoft? The risk of chasing mobile gaming jobs that ask for Java? The
risk is in how you conduct your job search, not your skillset.

>> What we can agree on, is there are more C++ jobs out there in the
>> game industry right now than anything else. This does not mean that
>> Java, C#, and Python jobs are absent.
>
> I believe that by saying that earlier, you could have avoided all the
> flames, and many more people could join our civilized conversation
> right now. (But that's ok, I'm having a good time discussing this
> just with you... )

You may recall that I was forced to concede this point. It was not in my
mind because I have a bias towards what the mainstream computer industry
wants. Game developers, unfortunately, never move along with higher level
language "best practices" as fast as the mainstream industry does. They
always think they have to do things in the ASM of the day. It is only very
recently that I myself have gotten over this disease, by falling flat on my
face doing too much low-level coding.

>> Where we may differ, is the relative importance of Java, C#, and
>> Python for the computer industry *in general*. Here's one set of
>> numbers recently dumped on the marketing-python list:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/infoworld/i...rrcode-in2.gif
>>
>> Which Programming Languages Do You and Your Engineers Use for
>> Development?
>>
>> Java 56%
>> Visual Basic 52%
>> C++ 49%
>> JavaScript 47%
>> shell script 41%
>> C 37%
>> Perl 34%
>> C# 23%
>> PHP 16%
>> other 16%
>> Python 8%
>>
>> From this one easily concludes that you certainly don't have to know
>> C++.
>
> Sure, If you're gonna do web development and DBs. I haven't seen
> "games" in the list, tho. Point is still moot.

What do you think a WildTangent game is? Or a MMOG?

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>
>> I "have'nt found a way to succeed". I'm successful, because I do well
>> personally. If I chose another path, I may have been successful as
>> well. There's no mythology there, I make games on demand for large
>> corporations (but not for the web). I do it alone (programming at
>> least). I have no formal education. These are the kind of things Tom
>> Sloper would wave both his hands as a big no no for an early career
>> path. I also make about a dozen games a year.
>
> So sayeth the not-a-worker-bee.

I know that, duh! I'm saying that had I felt the need to consult anyone, I
would have been led through a different career path! And I would also
probably would have been thankful for their safe advice.

>>>> I think you can take a look at yourself, and see that you
>>>> represent only a marginal force in the industry.
>>>
>>> And mainstream worker bees are powerful forces in the industry how,
>>> exactly?
>>
>> By being the majority, Brandon. It's called "the power of the
>> masses". By giving bees as an example, you're actually shooting
>> yourself in the foot. I guess you're Winnie the Pooh, then. Just
>> remember who got stung...
>
> I have trouble seeing worker bees as powerful forces. They strike me
> as inertial forces.

They also don't drive themselves. So what? A lot of animals (mankind
included) find comfort in the inertial power of the masses (again, this
coming from someone who detests "the masses").

>> "Go mud-dev" more niche than vague. People usually first think of
>> games as "Tetris", "Space Invaders", "Halo" etc., not mud... Asking
>> MS about game jobs is also vague as a career decision.
>
> Really. How vague can it be when MS and Nintendo are locked for the
> #2 console spot? MS publishes *lots* of games. Are you just hand
> waving away the fact that MS is a big player in the game industry?

If you honestly think someone with Python/Java experience will have the same
chance (or better) as someone with C++, then I really cannot argue any
further. I really can't tell for sure. It just doesn't make much sense.

>>> You have a fundamental choice you can make about your career. You
>>> can be pushy and in charge of it, make decisions about what you want
>>> to learn and what you want to do. You can be a technology leader, a
>>> forerunner / early adopter, and become an expert who calls the
>>> shots. Or, you can let other people tell you what to do. Your
>>> decision. The former often takes more work than the latter, but
>>> some people due to temperament would not have it any other way.
>>> It's actually harder for certain people to be in someone else's
>>> cage, they'd sooner suffer the slings and arrows to do what they
>>> want.
>>
>> It certainly seems to me it's not Python which got your attention,
>> but some sort of self-awareness course. I think that when somebody
>> asks others for their opinions, it means he is not the kind of person
>> to push himself forward. I believe you haven't asked any questions
>> when you were younger, and neither have I. That's why we're
>> different. Not better, just different.
>
> Interesting guess at my character. It's probably true, I have no
> memory of ever looking for mentors. I was almost entirely
> self-taught in 3D graphics, I only had 1 course in it back in
> college. But... just because someone asks a question for guidance,
> doesn't mean they're a sheep. We shouldn't self-edit and give advice
> on how to be good little sheep. Rather, we should lay out what the
> options and the consequences are.

There's a difference between "sheep" and just people who look for guidance.
What you're saying is: "Take the unsafe, but shorter, road to glory.
Basically, you're on your own, kid". At least be candid about it. Imagine
you're trying to teach someone how to use the roulette. Be kind enough to
mention that the greatest prize comes at the highest risk!

> For instance, what are the negative consequences of focusing on C++ ?
> - it has a horrible learning curve as one gets deeper into the
> language
> - it is cumbersome when projects are complicated and higher level
> - it's not the brightest star of commercial value anymore
> - in 5 years it will be fading, and other languages will be rising to
> prominence

On the plus side: every other guy and his sister are using it.

>>> For instance, if you want to do Python game development, then you
>>> learn Python and you go chase Python game jobs. You accept the
>>> consequences of that decision: you aren't going to be able to pick
>>> as wide a range of projects, companies, or geographical locations
>>> if you want those jobs. You may have to dig harder to find them.
>>> But you can certainly get those jobs, if you're motivated to do
>>> things "the Python way." And I think J2ME is easier to get into,
>>> and C# is easier still (remember, people use .NET to write tools).
>>> There's more commercial demand within gaming for both of those.
>>
>> But why on earth take the risk in the first place? You can learn C++,
>> get to a point where you're ok with it, get a starter job and advance
>> while working. A lot of jobs are like that. (Note: "A lot"!)
>
> What risk? The risk of knowing that you want to do MMOG games and
> need to go to mud-dev to find those jobs? The risk of sending your
> resume to Microsoft? The risk of chasing mobile gaming jobs that ask
> for Java? The risk is in how you conduct your job search, not your
> skillset.

The risk of kindly being shown the door at MS and every other company,
because they will always decide to invest in someone who knows solid C/C++,
than teach Mr. Pythonman all the essentials of optimization. Look, I have
complete sympathy with what you're saying. But I also know which road is
rockier. It's just not for everybody to do it.

>>> What we can agree on, is there are more C++ jobs out there in the
>>> game industry right now than anything else. This does not mean that
>>> Java, C#, and Python jobs are absent.
>>
>> I believe that by saying that earlier, you could have avoided all the
>> flames, and many more people could join our civilized conversation
>> right now. (But that's ok, I'm having a good time discussing this
>> just with you... )
>
> You may recall that I was forced to concede this point. It was not
> in my mind because I have a bias towards what the mainstream computer
> industry wants. Game developers, unfortunately, never move along
> with higher level language "best practices" as fast as the mainstream
> industry does. They always think they have to do things in the ASM
> of the day. It is only very recently that I myself have gotten over
> this disease, by falling flat on my face doing too much low-level
> coding.

You're being anecdotal, instead of objective. You really don't have a clue
to what your career would have looked like without the solid background you
have in "the ASM of the day". You could have made zillions of games and get
rich, or you could have died in the street from starvation, because no one
would give you a job without the "ASM of the day". Or you could have
discovered it would also be nice to go mainstream now and then, just for the
sake of solid cash flow... At the end of the day you, Brandon, still that
safety net (I don't, BTW). I'll give you an example: I've met with a couple
of skillful individual who had their own animation studios. Their movies
were quitre offbeat, but neither were ashamed to admit they needed to make
commercials they despised, just to make a decent living. I can respect that.
Can't you?

>>> Where we may differ, is the relative importance of Java, C#, and
>>> Python for the computer industry *in general*. Here's one set of
>>> numbers recently dumped on the marketing-python list:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/infoworld/i...rrcode-in2.gif
>>>
>>> Which Programming Languages Do You and Your Engineers Use for
>>> Development?
>>>
>>> Java 56%
>>> Visual Basic 52%
>>> C++ 49%
>>> JavaScript 47%
>>> shell script 41%
>>> C 37%
>>> Perl 34%
>>> C# 23%
>>> PHP 16%
>>> other 16%
>>> Python 8%
>>>
>>> From this one easily concludes that you certainly don't have to know
>>> C++.
>>
>> Sure, If you're gonna do web development and DBs. I haven't seen
>> "games" in the list, tho. Point is still moot.
>
> What do you think a WildTangent game is? Or a MMOG?

Did i miss something in that list, or were you joking? WildTangent/MMOGs are
what? 0.0001% of web development?

g

G.I.L wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>
>> So sayeth the not-a-worker-bee.
>
> I know that, duh! I'm saying that had I felt the need to consult
> anyone, I would have been led through a different career path! And I
> would also probably would have been thankful for their safe advice.

How can you conclude this? You never felt the need, so you do not know
where you would have ended up.

> There's a difference between "sheep" and just people who look for
> guidance. What you're saying is: "Take the unsafe, but shorter, road
> to glory. Basically, you're on your own, kid". At least be candid
> about it.

No. You are pronouncing gloom and doom. As far as I'm concerned, learning
C#, Java, and Python aren't nearly as risky as you make them out to be.

> The risk of kindly being shown the door at MS and every other company,
> because they will always decide to invest in someone who knows solid
> C/C++, than teach Mr. Pythonman all the essentials of optimization.

I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn C# to get
a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand experience that they
show you the door when you know C++ and not C#. The whole company does C#
now.

> or you could have died in the street
> from starvation, because no one would give you a job without the "ASM
> of the day".

Look, as someone who's rather familiar with how food banks operate by now, I
could do without the hyperbole. One good thing about actually having
suffered financially is you lose your fear of it. You can live in fear, you
can promote your fears to others. If you ever face those fears, you will
discover that that they are largely groundless. There are simply ways that
require more work and less work to get stuff done, that is all.

Choose well. Don't listen to people who tell you that you can't afford to
make a choice.

>> What do you think a WildTangent game is? Or a MMOG?
>
> Did i miss something in that list, or were you joking?
> WildTangent/MMOGs are what? 0.0001% of web development?

Are you laboring under the delusion of odds? A career is not odds. A
career is self-management.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>>
>>> So sayeth the not-a-worker-bee.
>>
>> I know that, duh! I'm saying that had I felt the need to consult
>> anyone, I would have been led through a different career path! And I
>> would also probably would have been thankful for their safe advice.
>
> How can you conclude this? You never felt the need, so you do not
> know where you would have ended up.

The same way you concluded on your career. Let's agree we both don't know
about our own career. But we can also agree that Tom gives some solid advice
for the newbie who seeks the mainstream way.

>> There's a difference between "sheep" and just people who look for
>> guidance. What you're saying is: "Take the unsafe, but shorter, road
>> to glory. Basically, you're on your own, kid". At least be candid
>> about it.
>
> No. You are pronouncing gloom and doom. As far as I'm concerned,
> learning C#, Java, and Python aren't nearly as risky as you make them
> out to be.

And you're pronouncing Capitalism the hard way: "If you're not successful,
it's because you haven't tried hard enough.".

>> The risk of kindly being shown the door at MS and every other
>> company, because they will always decide to invest in someone who
>> knows solid C/C++, than teach Mr. Pythonman all the essentials of
>> optimization.
>
> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn C#
> to get a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand
> experience that they show you the door when you know C++ and not C#.
> The whole company does C# now.

So Python gets lost altogether. OK, I'll agree it does make sense that MS
would like to promote .net this way. MS is a big player. But what if you
don't get lucky with them? What if you're not from the US at all? You're
ignoring worldwide jobs, although the original poster was AFAIR American.

>> or you could have died in the street
>> from starvation, because no one would give you a job without the "ASM
>> of the day".
>
> Look, as someone who's rather familiar with how food banks operate by
> now, I could do without the hyperbole. One good thing about actually
> having suffered financially is you lose your fear of it. You can
> live in fear, you can promote your fears to others. If you ever face
> those fears, you will discover that that they are largely groundless.
> There are simply ways that require more work and less work to get
> stuff done, that is all.

George W. would be proud of you, son. Most people would rather not confront
their fears. That's why they try to stick with the masses in the first
place. Now, giving that example in the first place, would have given the
newbie a whole new perspective on what you're suggesting (for the good and
bad).

> Choose well. Don't listen to people who tell you that you can't
> afford to make a choice.

There is no "choose well". You can do well in Cobol/Fortran/ADA, speaking of
the "ASM of the day", and fail in C#. It's all true only in retrospect. Only
after you've taken the risk. BTW, why do you ignore my comments on the
safety net you have? You can swear and curse all you like at C++, but if you
chose, you could probably avoid bad credit that way (big question if Python
will get you anywhere soon). Before you get all heated up, I agree there's
plenty of good learning C#. These days, that is...

>>> What do you think a WildTangent game is? Or a MMOG?
>>
>> Did i miss something in that list, or were you joking?
>> WildTangent/MMOGs are what? 0.0001% of web development?
>
> Are you laboring under the delusion of odds? A career is not odds. A
> career is self-management.

It's also about taking the safest bets at first, so you wouldn't have to
waste time coping with hasty decisions, instead of advancing your career.

g

"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> No. You are pronouncing gloom and doom.

You mean gloom and doom like C++ isn't even worth putting on a resume
anymore?

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little.
\__/ Gore Vidal

> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn C# to get
> a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand experience that they
> show you the door when you know C++ and not C#. The whole company does C#
> now.

This isn't true. I have several friends that work at Microsoft Game
Studios and they all use C++. They might use C# here and there for
tools or quick hacks, but for everything else they use C++.

Frecklefoot wrote:
>>I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn C# to get
>>a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand experience that they
>>show you the door when you know C++ and not C#. The whole company does C#
>>now.
>
> This isn't true. I have several friends that work at Microsoft Game
> Studios and they all use C++. They might use C# here and there for
> tools or quick hacks, but for everything else they use C++.

Yeah, but they've got lots of C++ programmers already

Considering how much Microsoft is investing in .NET, no doubt they're
looking to employ people who can use it.

Moral: Know what your prospective employer wants :>

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"

G.I.L wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>
>> No. You are pronouncing gloom and doom. As far as I'm concerned,
>> learning C#, Java, and Python aren't nearly as risky as you make them
>> out to be.
>
> And you're pronouncing Capitalism the hard way: "If you're not
> successful, it's because you haven't tried hard enough.".

11 years of C++ experience did not insulate me in the current job market in
Seattle. No matter how lousy a C++ developer may think I am, I am
absolutely certain that I have far more skill with the language than a
novice. So I have to say "yes and no" to your statement. Yes, you haven't
tried hard enough. No, not in the ways you think. The job hunting and
self-marketing skills are far more important than the specific tech skills.
One thing many of us techies have had to learn the hard way, as of late, is
there are all kinds of skills you have to master for your career that have
nothing to do with technology. In boom years, it was simply "Hey, I
program." "Great, you're hired!" Now there's much more of a premium on
acorn squirrelling and ass licking. Learning C++ is an ass licking
strategy, but I don't think it's as effective an ass licking strategy as
people make it out to be. There are other ways to lick ass.

>> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn C#
>> to get a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand
>> experience that they show you the door when you know C++ and not C#.
>> The whole company does C# now.
>
> So Python gets lost altogether.

No, you can go to mud-dev or ILM for Python. The Python route definitely
does put a premium on niche job hunting skills though. You will not find
those jobs so easily via Monster.com. But that's how it used to be for 3D
graphics jobs in the early to mid 90's, so having to "go niche" to find your
job didn't and doesn't exactly phase me. It's just a more tedious road than
"jobs on tap." But if you definitely want to work with 3D graphics, or
Python, or whatever, you do what ya gotta do.

> OK, I'll agree it does make sense
> that MS would like to promote .net this way. MS is a big player. But
> what if you don't get lucky with them?

I get really, really tired of people talking about their careers as though
it's a lottery. It isn't. Microsoft doesn't hire people on the basis of
"luck."

> What if you're not from the US
> at all? You're ignoring worldwide jobs, although the original poster
> was AFAIR American.

I cannot comment on employment demand outside the USA. I have no idea. I
definitely have an idea what sells in Redmond. C# is hot, C++ is not. Of
course there are many game developers in Seattle and they do say C++.

>BTW, why do you
> ignore my comments on the safety net you have? You can swear and
> curse all you like at C++, but if you chose, you could probably avoid
> bad credit that way (big question if Python will get you anywhere
> soon).

What safety net? I tossed my C++ resume out into the current Seattle job
market, and got nothing. Nada. Zip. If you think C++ is some kind of
safety net, you're living in delusion. Wake up! The only safety net is
telling people what they want to hear. General skills of stretching the
truth, lying, and ass licking. Oh, well there is of course being a God at
some particular technology. That does work. You up to being a God? in
C++? What if you don't *like* C++ that much? 'Cuz there's not much to
like. How do you think Pythonistas are born? They get fed up with C++,
they go looking for something that isn't painful.

>> Are you laboring under the delusion of odds? A career is not odds.
>> A career is self-management.
>
> It's also about taking the safest bets at first,

No, it is not. It is about taking *reasonable* bets, not the safest bets.

> so you wouldn't have
> to waste time coping with hasty decisions, instead of advancing your
> career.

You know, "having a career" and "advancing your carreer" are highly
overrated. Once you amass a certain amount of knowledge and experience, you
realize that computers are, at their core, big stinking piles of shit. What
people do is run around blithering with a particular stinking pile of shit
for 2 years at a go. Then the specific details get thrown out, the general
principles bend a good deal, and people keep right on chugging. The problem
with a disposable industry is the knowledge is largely disposable as well.
Most of computerdom is not brainy, just tedious. It's about whether you're
good at swimming through a sewer.

Ergo, I think people should make some early career effort at doing "what
they like," rather than the latest perceived fad and fear of whatever's in
demand. 'Cuz if you don't make an effort at doing what you like, you're
going to find that plenty of people will hand you things you don't like.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie

Frecklefoot wrote:
>> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn
>> C# to get a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand
>> experience that they show you the door when you know C++ and not C#.
>> The whole company does C# now.
>
> This isn't true. I have several friends that work at Microsoft Game
> Studios and they all use C++. They might use C# here and there for
> tools or quick hacks, but for everything else they use C++.

Ok, what % of Microsoft do you want to estimate does C# now? I will
estimate that for applications development, 90% is in C# now. Kernel guys
of course are going to be doing lower level stuff.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie