Re: Brandon's Law

"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> 11 years of C++ experience did not insulate me in the current job
> market in
> Seattle.

Your resume certainly didn't show 11 years of C++ experience. It showed
2-3 tops.

> What safety net? I tossed my C++ resume out into the current Seattle
> job
> market, and got nothing. Nada. Zip. If you think C++ is some kind
> of
> safety net, you're living in delusion. Wake up!

Maybe potential employers actually _read_ your resume and came to the
(pretty clear) conclusion that have very little experience and didn't
hire you because of _that_.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Whoever contends with the great sheds his own blood.
\__/ Sa'di

"Erik Max Francis" <max@alcyone.com> wrote in message
news:3FAC4629.EE6FD91B@alcyone.com...
> "Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:
>
> > 11 years of C++ experience did not insulate me in the current job
> > market in
> > Seattle.
>
> Your resume certainly didn't show 11 years of C++ experience. It showed
> 2-3 tops.

I haven't read the resume, but I remember him saying that he stopped with
C++ in 1993. So then he must have started using it in 1982. I'd say that's
pretty remarkable :-)

"Servé Lau" wrote:

> I haven't read the resume, but I remember him saying that he stopped
> with
> C++ in 1993. So then he must have started using it in 1982. I'd say
> that's
> pretty remarkable :-)

By no means meaning to come to his defense, actually, that's not what he
said. Googling for `"brandon van every" c++ 1993', he said he _started_
using C++ in 1993, and he said that he stopped talking about "C/C++" and
only mentioned "C++" on his resume in 1994 -- a curious point, by the
way, since his resume indicates his first (and only) software
engineering position was in 1996!

He said he staunchly refused to learn the new, Standard features, and
got rusty, but he never actually claimed he stopped using C++ in 1993.
He didn't give dates on these latter points, but judging from his
comments about the failure of his pet project, they happened very
recently -- within only the last few months.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ I wonder if heaven got a ghetto
\__/ Tupac Shakur

"Erik Max Francis" <max@alcyone.com> wrote in message
news:3FACA01A.D6AEB61@alcyone.com...
> By no means meaning to come to his defense, actually, that's not what he
> said. Googling for `"brandon van every" c++ 1993', he said he _started_
> using C++ in 1993, and he said that he stopped talking about "C/C++" and
> only mentioned "C++" on his resume in 1994 -- a curious point, by the
> way, since his resume indicates his first (and only) software
> engineering position was in 1996!

ah, ok sorry

"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:bohccq$1egung$1@ID->
> >> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn
> >> C# to get a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand
> >> experience that they show you the door when you know C++ and not C#.
> >> The whole company does C# now.
> >
> > This isn't true. I have several friends that work at Microsoft Game
> > Studios and they all use C++. They might use C# here and there for
> > tools or quick hacks, but for everything else they use C++.
>
> Ok, what % of Microsoft do you want to estimate does C# now? I will
> estimate that for applications development, 90% is in C# now. Kernel guys
> of course are going to be doing lower level stuff.

And they totally abandoned VB?

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>>
>>> No. You are pronouncing gloom and doom. As far as I'm concerned,
>>> learning C#, Java, and Python aren't nearly as risky as you make
>>> them out to be.
>>
>> And you're pronouncing Capitalism the hard way: "If you're not
>> successful, it's because you haven't tried hard enough.".
>
> 11 years of C++ experience did not insulate me in the current job
> market in Seattle. No matter how lousy a C++ developer may think I
> am, I am absolutely certain that I have far more skill with the
> language than a novice. So I have to say "yes and no" to your
> statement. Yes, you haven't tried hard enough. No, not in the ways
> you think. The job hunting and self-marketing skills are far more
> important than the specific tech skills. One thing many of us techies
> have had to learn the hard way, as of late, is there are all kinds of
> skills you have to master for your career that have nothing to do
> with technology. In boom years, it was simply "Hey, I program."
> "Great, you're hired!" Now there's much more of a premium on acorn
> squirrelling and ass licking. Learning C++ is an ass licking
> strategy, but I don't think it's as effective an ass licking strategy
> as people make it out to be. There are other ways to lick ass.

You ARE going through a phase, arncha?

>> OK, I'll agree it does make sense
>> that MS would like to promote .net this way. MS is a big player. But
>> what if you don't get lucky with them?
>
> I get really, really tired of people talking about their careers as
> though it's a lottery. It isn't. Microsoft doesn't hire people on
> the basis of "luck."

Oh yes it is, when you combine all the possible factors (it could be general
appearance, verbal skills etc.).

>> What if you're not from the US
>> at all? You're ignoring worldwide jobs, although the original poster
>> was AFAIR American.
>
> I cannot comment on employment demand outside the USA. I have no
> idea. I definitely have an idea what sells in Redmond. C# is hot,
> C++ is not. Of course there are many game developers in Seattle and
> they do say C++.

So it's really not a generality, and it isn't such "hot potatoes worldwide"
possibly?

>> BTW, why do you
>> ignore my comments on the safety net you have? You can swear and
>> curse all you like at C++, but if you chose, you could probably avoid
>> bad credit that way (big question if Python will get you anywhere
>> soon).
>
> What safety net? I tossed my C++ resume out into the current Seattle
> job market, and got nothing. Nada. Zip. If you think C++ is some
> kind of safety net, you're living in delusion. Wake up! The only
> safety net is telling people what they want to hear. General skills
> of stretching the truth, lying, and ass licking. Oh, well there is
> of course being a God at some particular technology. That does work.
> You up to being a God? in C++? What if you don't *like* C++ that
> much? 'Cuz there's not much to like. How do you think Pythonistas
> are born? They get fed up with C++, they go looking for something
> that isn't painful.

It's really hard to become god. Just ask Eep...

>>> Are you laboring under the delusion of odds? A career is not odds.
>>> A career is self-management.
>>
>> It's also about taking the safest bets at first,
>
> No, it is not. It is about taking *reasonable* bets, not the safest
> bets.

It makes more sense going the King's Highway.

>> so you wouldn't have
>> to waste time coping with hasty decisions, instead of advancing your
>> career.
>
> You know, "having a career" and "advancing your carreer" are highly
> overrated. Once you amass a certain amount of knowledge and
> experience, you realize that computers are, at their core, big
> stinking piles of shit. What people do is run around blithering with
> a particular stinking pile of shit for 2 years at a go. Then the
> specific details get thrown out, the general principles bend a good
> deal, and people keep right on chugging. The problem with a
> disposable industry is the knowledge is largely disposable as well.
> Most of computerdom is not brainy, just tedious. It's about whether
> you're good at swimming through a sewer.

Personal phase. See above.

> Ergo, I think people should make some early career effort at doing
> "what they like," rather than the latest perceived fad and fear of
> whatever's in demand. 'Cuz if you don't make an effort at doing what
> you like, you're going to find that plenty of people will hand you
> things you don't like.

That's not what I've witnessed. At least where I live. It usually doesn't
work like that. People who stick their asses to their jobs like glue and put
on a happy face, will most likely keep them. The "Gods" are too
overqualified to get hired (at least when the shit hits the fan
economy-wise).

g

In article <bohcaj$1e6ih4$1@ID-207230.news.uni-berlin.de>,
try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com says...
> [...]
> What safety net? I tossed my C++ resume out into the current Seattle job
> market, and got nothing. Nada. Zip.

Perhaps prospective employers are worried by the fact you haven't
held a real job in 5 years?

Christer Ericson
Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica

Servé Lau wrote:
> "Erik Max Francis" <max@alcyone.com> wrote in message
>> and only mentioned "C++" on his resume in 1994 -- a
>> curious point, by the way, since his resume indicates his first (and
>> only) software engineering position was in 1996!
>
> ah, ok sorry

Yes, I have only worked for someone else for 2 years. I have spent the vast
majority of my life attempting to write all my own code from scratch, with
mixed results. Contrary to popular belief, commercial experience is not
necessary to understand computers. Recently I realized that I've been
self-taught all my life, even in 1981 at age 11 I was self-taught on an
Atari 800.

It is worth noting that in the boom years, 2 years was all anyone needed to
have to prove their worth to anyone. It was the magic number. Now in these
bust years it is a stigma, regardless of the knowledge and skills I actually
have. The number is, ridiculously, more like 5 years now. There are ways
around the stigma, I've certainly had job nibbles that if only I had tried
harder, I could have landed. But the will hasn't been there. I want to
work on my own stuff, I don't like working on other people's stuff, and only
the severest financial realities force me to compromise. I'm also a really
bad self-promoter, I have no enthusiasm for it. My point is, I don't think
my technical skills are really the problem.

Currently I am considering other careers for paying the bills. So that I
don't have to work on other people's broken shit ever again. I will
continue to code my own games, and I will make a living as a self-funded
game developer someday. Until then... looking for the right day job.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie

Servé Lau wrote:
> "Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com>
> wrote in message news:bohccq$1egung$1@ID->
>>>> I didn't say learn Python to get a job at Microsoft. I said learn
>>>> C# to get a job at Microsoft. And frankly, I know from firsthand
>>>> experience that they show you the door when you know C++ and not
>>>> C#. The whole company does C# now.
>>>
>>> This isn't true. I have several friends that work at Microsoft Game
>>> Studios and they all use C++. They might use C# here and there for
>>> tools or quick hacks, but for everything else they use C++.
>>
>> Ok, what % of Microsoft do you want to estimate does C# now? I will
>> estimate that for applications development, 90% is in C# now.
>> Kernel guys of course are going to be doing lower level stuff.
>
> And they totally abandoned VB?

I think it's being end-of-lifed but I'm not sure. I'll ask my Microsoft
buddy.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie

"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> Yes, I have only worked for someone else for 2 years.

Then why did you attempt to claim you have 11 years C++ experience?

> It is worth noting that in the boom years, 2 years was all anyone
> needed to
> have to prove their worth to anyone. It was the magic number. Now in
> these
> bust years it is a stigma, regardless of the knowledge and skills I
> actually
> have.

The Silicon Valley, where I live, was hardest hit by the dot com bubble
popping, and I haven't had any trouble at all finding a job -- in fact
I'm working two contracts at the moment (one full time, one part time).
Everyone I've talked to is pretty much in agreement: The people with
very little experience that were promoted way too fast (simply because
during the bubble companies found it impossible to fill their positions
with qualified applicants) are the ones that are having trouble finding
jobs doing what they were inappropriately promoted to do. That isn't
exactly unfair; that's life. Without the bubble, they wouldn't have
found themselves doing what they were doing anyway (they'd have to climb
the ladder like everyone else), so when the bubble burst things returned
back to normal.

> Currently I am considering other careers for paying the bills.

Right, since software engineering pays so poorly ... [shakes head].

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Nothing is potent against love save impotence.
\__/ Samuel Butler