Re: Brandon's Law

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Serve Lau wrote:
>> "Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com>
>> There's still a big embedded world out there Brandon.
>
> Which isn't "handing you money just because you know C." Rather,
> because you know your way around the landscape of embedded device
> development.

I'm inserting my 0.02$ here, because I need a place to start.

First of all, trolling or not, this has become a flamefest. I honestly don't
know what caused Brandon to become so infuriated/ing. Before you start
answering, Brandon, ask yourself why this war does not usually revolve
around you, although you like the "hotter stuff", while this time it is
around you. I could pull something out of "Psychology 101", but I don't want
to insult anyone.

I personally believe the truth lies somewhere in between. The first thing
any newbie should ask himself is "what do I want to do", and not "how do I
wish to accomplish it" (this is question #2). Nobody in his right mind
should say something as unfocused as "I wish to be a programmer", or "I wish
to work in the game industry". This is akin to saying "I wish to work with
paint". Oh really? Do you want to do my fence, or be the next Michelangelo?
Both jobs involve paint. In that sense, Brandon is quite correct to assume
that if somebody wishes to make games, by all means do it in whatever makes
it easiest on you. Some tools will let you make games with virtually no
programming at all! I sat this is even better than "Python vs C++" debate.

However the market itself has its trends. And turning a blind eye to it,
just because you like to be a lone wolf, is plain silly. I hardly believe
that without the necessary mental and professional tools, you will get a
job. When you have experience using a language, which does the garbage
collection for you, for example, this is all fine. But when you come to an
interview and claim you have no idea how it works, and have no experience in
it, you will most likely lose the job to someone else who does.

I undestand the importance of differentiating yourself from the crowd by
walking the unorthodox way. It's also the riskier one, with the higher
chances of failure. You, Brandon, have walked both, so it's unfair of you to
tell someone who hasn't walked any, to take the bigger risk. Let the
beginner tread in shallow waters first, in order to take the big dive. I
know it sounds to you like that's what you offered, but by completely
avoiding the middle of the road, you're exposing yourself to a greater risk.
Let one make an educated decision on this one.

Cheers,
g

G.I.L wrote:

> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>>Serve Lau wrote:
>>
>>>"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com>
>>>There's still a big embedded world out there Brandon.
>>
>>Which isn't "handing you money just because you know C." Rather,
>>because you know your way around the landscape of embedded device
>>development.
>
> I'm inserting my 0.02$ here, because I need a place to start.
>
> First of all, trolling or not, this has become a flamefest. I honestly don't
> know what caused Brandon to become so infuriated/ing. Before you start
<snippage>

Hey, no fair intruding a voice of reason into a perfectly good flame war! :>

Seriously though, this whole thread is /so/ last week. Can we drop it
now? We've each established our opinions, and nothing has been achieved
in days. Can we move on now?

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"

"G.I.L" <not@all.com> wrote in message news:3fa7ac13$1@news.012.net.il...
>
> Some tools will let you make games with virtually no
> programming at all! I sat this is even better than "Python vs C++" debate.
>
> However the market itself has its trends. And turning a blind eye to it,
> just because you like to be a lone wolf, is plain silly. I hardly believe
> that without the necessary mental and professional tools, you will get a
> job. When you have experience using a language, which does the garbage
> collection for you, for example, this is all fine. But when you come to an
> interview and claim you have no idea how it works, and have no experience
in
> it, you will most likely lose the job to someone else who does.
>
> I undestand the importance of differentiating yourself from the crowd by
> walking the unorthodox way. It's also the riskier one, with the higher
> chances of failure. You, Brandon, have walked both, so it's unfair of you
to
> tell someone who hasn't walked any, to take the bigger risk. Let the
> beginner tread in shallow waters first, in order to take the big dive. I
> know it sounds to you like that's what you offered, but by completely
> avoiding the middle of the road, you're exposing yourself to a greater
risk.
> Let one make an educated decision on this one.

Why not try this algorithm:
1) learn an easier programming language. Say, Java, C#, or Python.
2) try to get a job with it.
3) if rebuked, learn something harder, like C++.

I think just about everybody is guilty of thinking newbies need to have
exactly the same credentials as they do / did. "Well, *I* had to know C++!
Surely *everybody* has got to know C++ ?!? Nobody could possibly get a job
in the game industry not knowing C++ ?!" Despite that there's the whole
emerging J2ME market for mobile games. Despite that lotsa game companies
build tools with .NET and C# is a .NET thing. Despite that lotsa MMOG
people use Python for their servers.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

> Why not try this algorithm:
> 1) learn an easier programming language. Say, Java, C#, or Python.

Again, subjective, "Java is easier than C or C++." Qualify your statement.
Perhaps, "Java is easier to get started with than C++" or "Java is easier to
learn the rudimentary elements of software engineering with than C++."

> 2) try to get a job with it.
> 3) if rebuked, learn something harder, like C++.

Why don't you try something more logical, like "determine what language is
of most value to the field of software engineering you are interested in?"
Your suggestion of learning Java, C#, or Python has no value to someone
interested in embedded devices, device drivers, various fields in AI, real
time finite element analysis, high end visualization, et cetera.

> I think just about everybody is guilty of thinking newbies need to have
> exactly the same credentials as they do / did. "Well, *I* had to know
C++!

You think this because you think you're the only person who actually
understands people's points and meaning, whereas none of them seem to
understand even their own points.

> Surely *everybody* has got to know C++ ?!? Nobody could possibly get a
job
> in the game industry not knowing C++ ?!"

Nobody ever said that. You're the idiot who said C++ was commercially
value-less.

> Despite that there's the whole
> emerging J2ME market for mobile games. Despite that lotsa game companies
> build tools with .NET and C# is a .NET thing.

Really? What "lotsa" game companies build tools with .NET?

> Despite that lotsa MMOG
> people use Python for their servers.

And what do they use for their clients?

You just can't admit that your ridiculous statements about C++ and C being
value-less ARE ridiculous, so you heap on another helping of the Brandon
Sanctimonious Compost (tm) to try and make it sound like others are saying
that you MUST ONLY use C++ if you want to learn anything, when, of course,
they are not.

WTH

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
<snipping myself>
>
> Why not try this algorithm:
> 1) learn an easier programming language. Say, Java, C#, or Python.

Why not try:
1) Don't learn any language, and start making games using "The Games
Factory" and its likes.

> 2) try to get a job with it.

2) Don't try get a job, 'coz no one will hire you.

> 3) if rebuked, learn something harder, like C++.

3) Study C++, 'coz all rivers lead to the ocean.

> I think just about everybody is guilty of thinking newbies need to
> have exactly the same credentials as they do / did. "Well, *I* had
> to know C++! Surely *everybody* has got to know C++ ?!? Nobody could
> possibly get a job in the game industry not knowing C++ ?!" Despite
> that there's the whole emerging J2ME market for mobile games.
> Despite that lotsa game companies build tools with .NET and C# is a
> .NET thing. Despite that lotsa MMOG people use Python for their
> servers.

Seriously, Brandon, how many job openings, and in what field will you get,
knowing J2ME/Python? Do you seriously think that 2 people competing over the
same position, one of them is familiar with C++ while the other isn't will
yield true competition? I'm doubtful. Why don't you examine your own career,
and think where it would be without those "bottom of the barrell" languages?
You are privileged enough to discover Python after years of professional
programming. You can finally enjoy the fact that the average computer will
give you a nice framerate in 3d under any development environment. This
hardly means all your knowledge was in vain.

g

G.I.L wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> <snipping myself>
>>
>> Why not try this algorithm:
>> 1) learn an easier programming language. Say, Java, C#, or Python.
>
> Why not try:
> 1) Don't learn any language, and start making games using "The Games
> Factory" and its likes.
>
>> 2) try to get a job with it.
>
> 2) Don't try get a job, 'coz no one will hire you.

Because by stage (2), your algorithm has no chance of anyone getting a game
programming job, and mine does. Especially, C# is so close to C++, and so
interoperable with it in a Windoze environment, that I think it's silly to
assume that an entry level hire will get turned down for knowing C# but not
C++. If the entry level work is console jock stuff, ok maybe so, but
there's all kinds of entry level work that aren't as performance critical
where companies would "swing it" if the newbie is a good developer.

>> 3) if rebuked, learn something harder, like C++.
>
> 3) Study C++, 'coz all rivers lead to the ocean.

You arrive at (3) without any programming knowledge. I arrive at (3) with
either C#, Java, or Python knowledge. All of these are better bridges to
C++ than a non-programming tool like The Games Factory.

This is a fundamental clash of world view. As long as you believe C++ is
essential to game development, I suppose you will have your world view.
Whereas I see many classes of web games, small games, game tools, and game
server scripts that don't require C++ at all. My world view is that C++ is
passe for computers in general, even if it is still of interest to high
performance game engine developers specifically. I think C++ will
increasingly be used as the "drop down for performance" language, not the
main development language. Much as ASM was used 10 years ago. Everyone had
these same arguments 10 years ago, and between lower and higher level
approaches, we know who won.

> Seriously, Brandon, how many job openings, and in what field will you
> get, knowing J2ME/Python? Do you seriously think that 2 people
> competing over the same position, one of them is familiar with C++
> while the other isn't will yield true competition?

Talk to a J2ME guru about embedded game development, I am not one. Like I
said, I've always found Java a boring idea, and mobile games have yet to
change my mind about that. I'll look at it again when the HW is more
capable and standardized, the tools are mature, and the licensing conditions
aren't onerous.

Currently, Python is primarily applicable to the MMOG space. If you go to
the mud-dev list, yes there are people who want to hear about Python skill.
The main reason I haven't chased those jobs is I want to write my own games,
not write someone else's game out in Iowa. If I didn't have such an intense
indie developer focus, I definitely could have availed myself of some Python
MMOG development opportunities over the past few years.

> I'm doubtful. Why
> don't you examine your own career, and think where it would be
> without those "bottom of the barrell" languages?

Wasting a lot less time, which is why I'm moving all development except
performance critical stuff to either C# or Python. And when/if I find a way
of dropping Windoze and still turning a buck, either consulting or shipping
my own games for Windoze, I'll drop C#. As it is, C# is currently the best
high-level fit to Microsoftie-land, and in Seattle it's worth money.

> You are privileged
> enough to discover Python after years of professional programming.

"Priveleged?" I went looking for an AI scripting language for my TBS title
"Ocean Mars," back when I thought "wouldn't it be neat" to offer user AI
scripting. I've since soured on that idea, but I did look at all the
scripting language contenders. I earmarked Python due to its mature
development community, simple syntax, and less painful newbie learning
curve. I also looked at Lua, which was more performance oriented, but also
more abstruse to the novice and had less of a developer community behind it.
Then at GDC 2002 I heard Bruce Dawson's lecture on Python, how Humongous
Entertainment was (at that time) an all-Python shop. I'm also aware of
Python's use in the film industry, for instance ILM is a huge investor in
Python. Finally, I've recently become interested in higher level language
"in general," because IMO C++ is a PITA once you get to a certain level of
application complexity. That leads to the usual suspects: Java, C#, Python.

So, "Priveleged?" No. Driven by development needs, yes. Nowadays, I need
programmer productivity much more than I need highest possible performance.
That's true for most developers nowadays, including a lot of game
development tasks.

> You can finally enjoy the fact that the average computer will give
> you a nice framerate in 3d under any development environment. This
> hardly means all your knowledge was in vain.

Yes, fine, but what do we tell the newbies to do? They aren't saddled with
the absolute performance requirements that we were. I think all we really
need to do is tell them, "Watch out for GC stalls!" Telling them to learn
C++ just so they'll know how to handle the performance implications of GC
langauges is overkill.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"Desperation is the motherfucker of Invention." - Robert Prestridge

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>> <snipping myself>
>>>
>>> Why not try this algorithm:
>>> 1) learn an easier programming language. Say, Java, C#, or Python.
>>
>> Why not try:
>> 1) Don't learn any language, and start making games using "The Games
>> Factory" and its likes.
>>
>>> 2) try to get a job with it.
>>
>> 2) Don't try get a job, 'coz no one will hire you.
>
> Because by stage (2), your algorithm has no chance of anyone getting
> a game programming job, and mine does. Especially, C# is so close to
> C++, and so interoperable with it in a Windoze environment, that I
> think it's silly to assume that an entry level hire will get turned
> down for knowing C# but not C++. If the entry level work is console
> jock stuff, ok maybe so, but there's all kinds of entry level work
> that aren't as performance critical where companies would "swing it"
> if the newbie is a good developer.

It's all about the skills needed to get job x done. Sometimes (mostly?) C#
is not enough.

>>> 3) if rebuked, learn something harder, like C++.
>>
>> 3) Study C++, 'coz all rivers lead to the ocean.
>
> You arrive at (3) without any programming knowledge. I arrive at (3)
> with either C#, Java, or Python knowledge. All of these are better
> bridges to C++ than a non-programming tool like The Games Factory.

The bigger question is how much time you've wasted until discovery. Your way
is much longer than mine. I say "give it a shot at the absolute easiest
fastest path". If you can't make something nice using the Games Factory
after a couple of months, than you hardly stand a chance using even QBasic,
and you should reconsider. This is, of course, only true as long as we're
talking about games. DB, GUI etc. are different stories.

> This is a fundamental clash of world view. As long as you believe
> C++ is essential to game development, I suppose you will have your
> world view. Whereas I see many classes of web games, small games,
> game tools, and game server scripts that don't require C++ at all.
> My world view is that C++ is passe for computers in general, even if
> it is still of interest to high performance game engine developers
> specifically. I think C++ will increasingly be used as the "drop
> down for performance" language, not the main development language.
> Much as ASM was used 10 years ago. Everyone had these same arguments
> 10 years ago, and between lower and higher level approaches, we know
> who won.

And we'll risk standing at the unemployment line waiting? No thanks.

>> Seriously, Brandon, how many job openings, and in what field will you
>> get, knowing J2ME/Python? Do you seriously think that 2 people
>> competing over the same position, one of them is familiar with C++
>> while the other isn't will yield true competition?
>
> Talk to a J2ME guru about embedded game development, I am not one.
> Like I said, I've always found Java a boring idea, and mobile games
> have yet to change my mind about that. I'll look at it again when
> the HW is more capable and standardized, the tools are mature, and
> the licensing conditions aren't onerous.

Big risk-taking: good career path for the mature, bad newbie advice.

> Currently, Python is primarily applicable to the MMOG space. If you
> go to the mud-dev list, yes there are people who want to hear about
> Python skill. The main reason I haven't chased those jobs is I want
> to write my own games, not write someone else's game out in Iowa. If
> I didn't have such an intense indie developer focus, I definitely
> could have availed myself of some Python MMOG development
> opportunities over the past few years.
>
>> I'm doubtful. Why
>> don't you examine your own career, and think where it would be
>> without those "bottom of the barrell" languages?
>
> Wasting a lot less time, which is why I'm moving all development
> except performance critical stuff to either C# or Python.

You seem to have skipped both expeience and money.

> And when/if I find a way of dropping Windoze and still turning a buck,
> either consulting or shipping my own games for Windoze, I'll drop C#.
> As it is, C# is currently the best high-level fit to
> Microsoftie-land, and in Seattle it's worth money.
>> You are privileged
>> enough to discover Python after years of professional programming.
>
> "Priveleged?" I went looking for an AI scripting language for my TBS
> title "Ocean Mars," back when I thought "wouldn't it be neat" to
> offer user AI scripting. I've since soured on that idea, but I did
> look at all the scripting language contenders. I earmarked Python
> due to its mature development community, simple syntax, and less
> painful newbie learning curve. I also looked at Lua, which was more
> performance oriented, but also more abstruse to the novice and had
> less of a developer community behind it. Then at GDC 2002 I heard
> Bruce Dawson's lecture on Python, how Humongous Entertainment was (at
> that time) an all-Python shop. I'm also aware of Python's use in the
> film industry, for instance ILM is a huge investor in Python.
> Finally, I've recently become interested in higher level language "in
> general," because IMO C++ is a PITA once you get to a certain level
> of application complexity. That leads to the usual suspects: Java,
> C#, Python.

You heard one lecture and now it's the new mantra for newbies???

> So, "Priveleged?" No. Driven by development needs, yes. Nowadays,
> I need programmer productivity much more than I need highest possible
> performance. That's true for most developers nowadays, including a
> lot of game development tasks.
>
>> You can finally enjoy the fact that the average computer will give
>> you a nice framerate in 3d under any development environment. This
>> hardly means all your knowledge was in vain.
>
> Yes, fine, but what do we tell the newbies to do? They aren't
> saddled with the absolute performance requirements that we were. I
> think all we really need to do is tell them, "Watch out for GC
> stalls!" Telling them to learn C++ just so they'll know how to
> handle the performance implications of GC langauges is overkill.

You may not believe this, but I'm actually even more fanatical about this
than you. I'd never needed to learn Java/C++/Python/whatever, because at an
early stage I discovered I could make a living making games for 1/20th the
time it takes just about anyone else (not Games Factory, don't worry). I
have not wasted a single second of my life in the process. I'm having a hell
of a time, and I still can't see that window opening for me to learn more
"serious" languages. I'm too busy making games... But I would be very
cautious to tell any newbie too take the dive into what might turn to be an
empty pool... There are others way to innovate and make a difference.

g

G.I.L wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>
>> You arrive at (3) without any programming knowledge. I arrive at (3)
>> with either C#, Java, or Python knowledge. All of these are better
>> bridges to C++ than a non-programming tool like The Games Factory.
>
> The bigger question is how much time you've wasted until discovery.
> Your way is much longer than mine.

How do you figure that? You figure someone just automatically knows C++ the
minute they start learning it? A newbie can be up to speed and productive
with Python in a month. Longer for C# and Java, but still short compared to
C++.

> If you can't make something nice
> using the Games Factory after a couple of months,

I'd expect a newbie to have a Python game done in 2 months. Longer for C#
and Java.

>> Everyone had these same arguments
>> 10 years ago, and between lower and higher level approaches, we know
>> who won.
>
> And we'll risk standing at the unemployment line waiting? No thanks.

Barring an exceptionally bad economy, the unemployment line is about fear.
You can either live in fear of all the requirements you think you have to
fulfil to get a job, or you can learn something + put equal emphasis on your
interviewing skills. "I'd better learn C++ or I'm gonna die!" is the wrong
attitude.

> You heard one lecture and now it's the new mantra for newbies???

If I thought ease of Python's mastery was some isolated phenom, I wouldn't
be bullish about it.

>> Yes, fine, but what do we tell the newbies to do? They aren't
>> saddled with the absolute performance requirements that we were. I
>> think all we really need to do is tell them, "Watch out for GC
>> stalls!" Telling them to learn C++ just so they'll know how to
>> handle the performance implications of GC langauges is overkill.
>
> You may not believe this, but I'm actually even more fanatical about
> this than you. I'd never needed to learn Java/C++/Python/whatever,
> because at an early stage I discovered I could make a living making
> games for 1/20th the time it takes just about anyone else (not Games
> Factory, don't worry). I have not wasted a single second of my life
> in the process. I'm having a hell of a time, and I still can't see
> that window opening for me to learn more "serious" languages. I'm too
> busy making games... But I would be very cautious to tell any newbie
> too take the dive into what might turn to be an empty pool... There
> are others way to innovate and make a difference.

You've completely lost me. What agenda are you trying to advance? That you
know secrets you're not telling anybody? Are you trying to steer attention
away from whatever you do, so that you have less competition? I just don't
undersand why you'd spend time arguing for C++ out of job fear, only to turn
around and say that acutally, it's been totally irrelevant to your personal
experience.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"Desperation is the motherfucker of Invention." - Robert Prestridge

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> G.I.L wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

<snip>

>>> Yes, fine, but what do we tell the newbies to do? They aren't
>>> saddled with the absolute performance requirements that we were. I
>>> think all we really need to do is tell them, "Watch out for GC
>>> stalls!" Telling them to learn C++ just so they'll know how to
>>> handle the performance implications of GC langauges is overkill.
>>
>> You may not believe this, but I'm actually even more fanatical about
>> this than you. I'd never needed to learn Java/C++/Python/whatever,
>> because at an early stage I discovered I could make a living making
>> games for 1/20th the time it takes just about anyone else (not Games
>> Factory, don't worry). I have not wasted a single second of my life
>> in the process. I'm having a hell of a time, and I still can't see
>> that window opening for me to learn more "serious" languages. I'm too
>> busy making games... But I would be very cautious to tell any newbie
>> too take the dive into what might turn to be an empty pool... There
>> are others way to innovate and make a difference.
>
> You've completely lost me. What agenda are you trying to advance?
> That you know secrets you're not telling anybody? Are you trying to
> steer attention away from whatever you do, so that you have less
> competition? I just don't undersand why you'd spend time arguing for
> C++ out of job fear, only to turn around and say that acutally, it's
> been totally irrelevant to your personal experience.

I figured this would happen. I like being the devil's advocate, just for the
sake of dropping the bomb...
Seriously, what I'm trying to say is that I'm standing at the most extreme
point you're trying to make. But I do acknowledge it's not safe, unorthodox,
and therefore unfair of me to lecture any newbie to follow my path. I
consider my career somewhat unique (not alone in the universe, but certainly
unorthodox), and I understand this is not for everyone, to say the least. I
think you can take a look at yourself, and see that you represent only a
marginal force in the industry. I salute you for walking your own path, but
you don't offer any employment opportunities for others, just vague
possibilities.

g

G.I.L wrote:
>
> I figured this would happen. I like being the devil's advocate, just
> for the sake of dropping the bomb...

Interesting philosophy of discourse. I can't say I've ever run into a
"Stealth Devil" before. :-)

> Seriously, what I'm trying to say is that I'm standing at the most
> extreme point you're trying to make. But I do acknowledge it's not
> safe, unorthodox, and therefore unfair of me to lecture any newbie to
> follow my path. I consider my career somewhat unique (not alone in
> the universe, but certainly unorthodox), and I understand this is not
> for everyone, to say the least.

Are you willing to be more specific about your career path? I don't think
it's credible to make general pronouncements of "I've found a way to
succeed, it's very different from what everyone else does, it definitely
worked in my case, but it won't work in yours." You might be biased as to
how unique your path is or how doable it is for others. Certainly, I don't
see the point in promoting mythologies of necessary status quo, even if one
ultimately chooses status quo techniques. It smacks of self-censorship.

> I think you can take a look at
> yourself, and see that you represent only a marginal force in the
> industry.

And mainstream worker bees are powerful forces in the industry how, exactly?

> I salute you for walking your own path, but you don't offer
> any employment opportunities for others, just vague possibilities.

There's nothing vague about saying "go to mud-dev and ask about Python
jobs." There's nothing vague about saying "talk to Microsoft about C# game
jobs." I'm sure they'd be interested in tools development if nothing else.
There's nothing vague about going after J2ME mobile gaming jobs. I don't
know where you're getting this "vagueness" idea from, unless you think I'm
going to personally do all the jobhunting for someone.

You have a fundamental choice you can make about your career. You can be
pushy and in charge of it, make decisions about what you want to learn and
what you want to do. You can be a technology leader, a forerunner / early
adopter, and become an expert who calls the shots. Or, you can let other
people tell you what to do. Your decision. The former often takes more
work than the latter, but some people due to temperament would not have it
any other way. It's actually harder for certain people to be in someone
else's cage, they'd sooner suffer the slings and arrows to do what they
want.

For instance, if you want to do Python game development, then you learn
Python and you go chase Python game jobs. You accept the consequences of
that decision: you aren't going to be able to pick as wide a range of
projects, companies, or geographical locations if you want those jobs. You
may have to dig harder to find them. But you can certainly get those jobs,
if you're motivated to do things "the Python way." And I think J2ME is
easier to get into, and C# is easier still (remember, people use .NET to
write tools). There's more commercial demand within gaming for both of
those.

What we can agree on, is there are more C++ jobs out there in the game
industry right now than anything else. This does not mean that Java, C#,
and Python jobs are absent.

Where we may differ, is the relative importance of Java, C#, and Python for
the computer industry *in general*. Here's one set of numbers recently
dumped on the marketing-python list:

http://www.infoworld.com/infoworld/i...rrcode-in2.gif

Which Programming Languages Do You and Your Engineers Use for
Development?

Java 56%
Visual Basic 52%
C++ 49%
JavaScript 47%
shell script 41%
C 37%
Perl 34%
C# 23%
PHP 16%
other 16%
Python 8%

From this one easily concludes that you certainly don't have to know C++.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed Mckenzie