ProtoCiv: porting Freeciv to Python

> > Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > > - I'm a commercial developer, not a hobbyist.
> >
> > Good luck. You haven't made any money yet, right? It's been
> > five years?
>
> Almost six. And I'm still doing what I want to do, so that should tell
you
> something.

That tells me that you are willing to make sacrifices to do what you want.
That's all.

So what differentiates a hobbyist from a commercial developer? Making
money? Intent to make money? Neither of those really. Plenty of
commercial developers end up losing money so that can't be it.

How about the level of seriousness with which you approach development and
treat it like a job rather than a hobby? Do you?

I'm still a bit confused as to why you're doing this port. If you want to
be able to try out game play ideas wouldn't it be better to prototype things
in _your_ game rather than porting someone else's? Doing the port strikes
me as a rathole to waste time in while not actually contributing to getting
your game done.

Stephen

"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:bsflkg$coko2$1@ID-207230.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "cr88192" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:vul2i238el9hda@corp.supernews.com...
> > <snipped entire post>
> >
> > I am mostly responding because I found it amusing that I disagreed with
> > nearly every point mentioned here, this is not meant as any kind of
> > discouragement though...
>
> Different strokes for different folks! :-)
>
yes.

> > it is quite likely that I just have a very much different set of
ideals...
>
> Yes, given our previous discussions in
> comp.games.development.programming.misc, I'd say your tastes run the
> opposite for a number of significant things. Functional vs. imperative,
> technology vs. Game Design.
>
quite agreed.

"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> "Tom Plunket" <tomas@fancy.org> wrote:
>
> > Good luck. You haven't made any money yet, right? It's been
> > five years?
>
> Almost six. And I'm still doing what I want to do, so that should
> tell you
> something.

In those six years you haven't managed to produce anything, so I'm not
exactly sure what that's supposed to tell us. (Plus, it's useful
information to know that, by your own admission, before those five years
started when you left your first and only job ever in the computer
industry, which lasted only two years.)

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ I'm sharing the joy / I'm glowing like sunshine
-- Chante Moore

"Dan Olson" <hatespam@fakeemail.com> wrote in message
newsan.2003.12.25.23.08.46.632062@fakeemail.com. ..
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 14:12:12 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > C is not a good language for anything but portable assembly.
>
> This will be fun, the same flamewar we had last month... but with Python
> fans involved!

But this discussion would only (properly) be about the appropriateness of
various languages for prototyping Game Designs. I say Python is
appropriate, and C isn't.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"Desperation is the motherfucker of Invention." - Robert Prestridge

"Stephen Coy" <scoy@infiniteinstant.com> wrote in message
news:PRKGb.19777$Pg1.2051@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
> > > Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > > > - I'm a commercial developer, not a hobbyist.
> > >
> > > Good luck. You haven't made any money yet, right? It's been
> > > five years?
> >
> > Almost six. And I'm still doing what I want to do, so that should tell
> > you something.
>
> That tells me that you are willing to make sacrifices to do what you want.
> That's all.

Personally I wouldn't trivialize it. Most people I've met think these
career decisions are "luck."

> So what differentiates a hobbyist from a commercial developer?

Putting a substantial amount of money where one's mouth is. What
distinguishes a *successful* commercial developer, is turning a profit. I
don't claim to be one of those yet! However, I will be. A person who
withstands poverty for the sake of his purpose, has unbreakable resolve and
will accomplish what he set out to do. Assuming he has the capacity to
learn and adjust as the various bombs go off. I do; so I will.

> How about the level of seriousness with which you approach development and
> treat it like a job rather than a hobby? Do you?

Yes I do. One tangible difference between myself and a hobbyist, is that
when I choose to work on something, I can work 40..60 hours a week on it.
And not be endangering my health. I do know some crazy people who (say
they) work 80 hours a week at their game job, then go home and work on
personal projects. Bruce Mitchener, one of the project leads for Nebula,
does this for instance. I've told him he should take a break, it is a
serious danger to one's health to work that much and have no balance in
one's life.

> I'm still a bit confused as to why you're doing this port. If you want to
> be able to try out game play ideas wouldn't it be better to prototype
things
> in _your_ game rather than porting someone else's?

Freeciv is a complete, working game. Currently, Ocean Mars is only a
spherical hexified icosahedron planetary map. It might *still* be a better
idea to work only on Ocean Mars, even in its rather incomplete state. It
depends on how easy it is to transform Freeciv from C to Python, and how
much I have rip out to do Game Design "as I want to." If I have to rip out
everything to get things done, then I really didn't have any starter code,
eh? The problem is, I can't estimate the difficulty of the task until I've
gotten my hands dirty and tried to do a few things. I think I'll have a
good picture of Freeciv's value add in about a week or so.

Another minor consideration is I'm a network nunce. Freeciv has a strong
multiplayer implementation, that's the main thing the energy has been poured
into. So I may learn a thing or two about how to put networked client /
server games together. Enough, I'm sure, to make good decisions for Ocean
Mars. Or at least avoid very bad ones!

> Doing the port strikes
> me as a rathole to waste time in while not actually contributing to
getting
> your game done.

Even in the worst case, it is not a complete loss. I'll learn how to
estimate the difficulty of migrating reasonably clean C codebases to Python.
I can turn around and consult that skill in all kinds of industrial
contexts.

I also want to see if I can orchestrate and manage open source developers
according to the terms of the project as I stated them. I want to see if my
managerial skills are up to it. I last attempted something like this 10
years ago!

I want to see if open source developers can function as a value add to
commerce. I think a lot of open source developers are in it for idealism,
not for commercial relevance. A few projects do try and succeed at being
commercially relevant. For instance, Nebula:
http://nebuladevice.sourceforge.net/...Nebula/WebHome

Commercial relevance is not just about whether a project makes money. A
project could be a locus of best practices, a mecca of cutting edge Game
Design, a pedagogical tool, or a source of components if I can persuade
people to go with LGPL or BSD licenses rather than GPL.

Of course the problem with establishing commercial relevance is that
commercial people only respect making money, and spending money. Nebula,
for instance, has shipped about 10 commercial titles I'm told, with the
showcase being Project Nomads. http://www.project-nomads.de/ It's
certianly a good-looking game, and judging by the demo it's a good *playing*
game, but I don't know how they've done sales-wise. Anyways, Nebula can
potentially be respected for having made someone money. But will it lose
respect because people don't *spend* money for it? I've asked the Nebula
developers whether they see an issue here, and whether Nebula needs a
marketing effort. The conversation fell on deaf ears, nobody responded.
Organizationally, Nebula is a rather sharp and energetic group of techies,
but I don't think they've evolved to the point where marketing is a factor
in their thinking.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"Desperation is the motherfucker of Invention." - Robert Prestridge

"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:bsglco$cskls$1@ID-207230.news.uni-berlin.de...
> But this discussion would only (properly) be about the appropriateness of
> various languages for prototyping Game Designs. I say Python is
> appropriate, and C isn't.

I agree, but simple text files with a few statements, loops and ocnditional
expressions are good enough for Game Designs

--
Looking for a C(99) compiler for windows?
Download lccwin32.
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/

"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote:

> Putting a substantial amount of money where one's mouth is. What
> distinguishes a *successful* commercial developer, is turning ae
> profit. I
> don't claim to be one of those yet! However, I will be. A person who
> withstands poverty for the sake of his purpose, has unbreakable
> resolve and
> will accomplish what he set out to do. Assuming he has the capacity
> to
> learn and adjust as the various bombs go off. I do; so I will.
...
> Currently, Ocean Mars is only a
> spherical hexified icosahedron planetary map. It might *still* be a
> better
> idea to work only on Ocean Mars, even in its rather incomplete state.

You left your one and only job in the computer industry to work on your
own game, which after years is in a state that in no way resembles even
the remotest early attempts at putting together an actual game. (Last
time I saw you talking about it, just before you abandoned it, you had
admitted that you hadn't even given _any_ consideration to the actual
_game design_!)

Yet you're going to succeed because you're willing to put your money
where your mouth is? So far you've been doing that and what do you have
to show for it? Abandoning your project, abandoning C++, embracing
Python, dumping on it and its community, embracing it again, and now
plan to port a complete game to Python for absolutely no coherent
reason.

Are you _sure_ things are working out like you'd hoped?

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Oh, we positively sparkled on TV
-- Lamya

"Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:bsgogl$cj4kf$1@ID-207230.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > So what differentiates a hobbyist from a commercial developer?
>
> Putting a substantial amount of money where one's mouth is. What
> distinguishes a *successful* commercial developer, is turning a profit. I
> don't claim to be one of those yet! However, I will be. A person who
> withstands poverty for the sake of his purpose, has unbreakable resolve
and
> will accomplish what he set out to do. Assuming he has the capacity to
> learn and adjust as the various bombs go off. I do; so I will.
>
> > How about the level of seriousness with which you approach development
and
> > treat it like a job rather than a hobby? Do you?
>
> Yes I do. One tangible difference between myself and a hobbyist, is that
> when I choose to work on something, I can work 40..60 hours a week on it.

Being unemployed by choice doesn't raise you from the ranks of hobbyists.
It just makes you an unemployed hobbyist. I admire your enthusiasm but your
approach is far from professional. As far as I can tell you started coding
a game without having a design, spent way too much time wrestling with
getting a small part of the technology that you _might_ need working, and
are now going off at right angles on a project that may teach you something
if you are lucky. You seem to put a lot of stock in "putting your money
where you mouth is" but what does that really mean if you get little or no
value for it? Someone who only puts in 10 hours a week will get a lot more
done with decent planning and some serious discipline that you seem to do in
your 40-60 hours. And they'll have time to hold down a job too. In
previous postings I've seen you disparage doing specs and design work at the
expense of actually coding. Sure a lot of people never get beyond starting
a design but if you're serious about making a game, especially as a solo
project, you have to have a good design worked out before you start coding
otherwise you'll end up wasting years doing stuff that never actually gets
you to your goal. Sound familiar?

Stephen

Note followup to c.g.d.industry.

"Stephen Coy" <scoy@infiniteinstant.com> wrote in message news:qTUGb.20132
> "Brandon J. Van Every" <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >
> > Yes I do. One tangible difference between myself and a hobbyist, is
that
> > when I choose to work on something, I can work 40..60 hours a week on
it.
>
> Being unemployed by choice doesn't raise you from the ranks of hobbyists.
> It just makes you an unemployed hobbyist.

I have -$60K that says otherwise. When you've lost big money to pursue your
own game development goals, let's talk again. Otherwise as far as I'm
concerned, your opinion on the matter is a bunch of yadda yadda from someone
who has not set foot in the trenches of self-funded game development.

> I admire your enthusiasm but your approach is far from professional.

When you front your own money you can have your own business model. I'm
sure you'll feel free to do things differently than I do / did. And I'll be
amused to see the specific ways you screw up, because you will. I put my
screwups on the table for everyone to see because (1) I'm over the fear of
having screwed up or being perceived as a screw-up, (2) so that others may
benefit from my school of hard knocks.

> As far as I can tell you started coding a game without having a design,

False. In fact, I spent *way too much* time designing, in the years before
I actually started coding Ocean Mars like crazy. It's easy to get lost in
your background materials when you don't have a firm ship date. I made far
more progress when the financial noose finally tightened around my neck. I
seem to need a financial crisis to motivate me, or at least to get me past
significant roadblocks.

> spent way too much time wrestling with
> getting a small part of the technology that you _might_ need working,

False. The spherical hexified icosahedron was and still is a core project
component of Ocean Mars. Absolutely essential. Well truthfully, a
*spherical planet* is essential, to cinematically sell that it's Mars.
That's the driving concern, it's about film. Also, such a planet would be a
Unique Sales Point in today's gaming market. But I have considered several
spherical representations of planets. As far as I'm concerned, the planet
does have to be regularly quantized for AI and random map generation
purposes, and the hexified icosahedral quantification is the one I want to
use. I looked at arbitrary triangulations and measuring distances directly
on the surface, and I do not consider such approaches to be computationally
sane on today's hardware. We will need another 5 years of FPU improvement
before it does become sane.

My hubris was far more specific than you suggested. I tried to map Mars at
10 km/hex detail on a GeForce2. That's 1.6 million hexes, the card can't
push it without a lot of implementation pain. It *can* be done, but the
implementation effort to get there is too much. And there's a risk of not
enough juice being left over for the AI. So I've dropped these performance
jock / overweening realism concerns for now. This has a lot to do with why
I changed my domain name from 3DProgrammer.com to indiegamedesign.com.

> and are now going off at right angles on a project that may teach
> you something if you are lucky.

False again. You clearly don't understand my project history or current
requirements. I certainly haven't spent much time explaining them, so
that's unsurprising. In the absence of long, detailed explanations, one
could project all kinds of stuff. Even *with* the long, detailed
explanation, one could project all kinds of stuff - which is why I'm not
going to provide them.

But a synopsis: I've just spent more than a month bashing it out with Xconq
developers, Freeciv developers, and Python marketers to determine what my
Ocean Mars and ProtoCiv project requirements really are.

I didn't post the ProtoCiv Project Goals to have a lot of debates about the
usual, abstract chops-busting. I posted them to fish out interesting lines
of thinking I might not have considered. For instance, I didn't consider
that despite the Freeciv GPL, I could be more up-front aggressive about
persuading people to submit code under LGPL or BSD licenses. That's Tom
Plunket's contribution to my thinking, as negative an approach as he took to
the Project Goals in general. Even a rock thrower can serve a purpose.
Which is why I don't listen to rock throwers who say, "Don't put up targets!
Don't talk until you've finished everything, nyaaah!"

> You seem to put a lot of stock in "putting your money
> where you mouth is" but what does that really mean if you get little or no
> value for it?

I've gotten tons of value for it. Clearly, my values aren't your values.

> Someone who only puts in 10 hours a week will get a lot more
> done with decent planning and some serious discipline that you seem to do
in
> your 40-60 hours.

You seem to think so. Have you ever put your money where your mouth is?

> And they'll have time to hold down a job too.

Suuuure. Done it yourself?

> In
> previous postings I've seen you disparage doing specs and design work at
the
> expense of actually coding. Sure a lot of people never get beyond
starting
> a design but if you're serious about making a game, especially as a solo
> project, you have to have a good design worked out before you start coding

Why? Because you feel that's the Right Way To Run Projects [TM] ?

> otherwise you'll end up wasting years doing stuff that never actually gets
> you to your goal.

Very strange leap of logic you've made there. Even if I granted your point
(which I don't) you're talking about a catastrophic worst case. More
reasonably, one might merely suffer some loss of time. This is to be
weighed against other possible ways to lose time, i.e. overplanning and
overengineering.

> Sound familiar?

Only in the sense of suppositions I've heard raised in forums before. "Not
having a design in hand" wasn't ever my problem. In fact, I can point to a
lot of notebooks that say I had way too much design in hand. The problems
were:

- not sticking to *one* project. Solved that by sticking to Ocean Mars.

- not a simple enough project. Solved that by losing $60K and learning the
error of my ways. Nowadays all projects are simple, and all projects are
components for the ultimate goal of Ocean Mars.

- no business model. Only a spending model.

- perceived need to prove myself as a 3D performance jock. Aside from old
habits dying hard, I had the mistaken idea that that's what I should be
consulting. Still solving that... I'll be consulting Python and C#.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

In article <bsglco$cskls$1@ID-207230.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Brandon J. Van Every <try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname@yahoo.com> wrote:
>But this discussion would only (properly) be about the appropriateness of
>various languages for prototyping Game Designs. I say Python is
>appropriate, and C isn't.

Prototyping != implementing.

Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates - personal webpage http://www.visi.com/~nathan/
# Programmer at Pandemic Studios -- http://www.pandemicstudios.com/
# NOT speaking for Pandemic Studios. "Care not what the neighbors
# think. What are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" -R.A. Heinlein