X10 replacement?

So many systems, and not enough time to play!

Everyone wants to be the X10 replacement but who is the closest?

I'm looking for:
* Cheap to start. No central controler at $500+ and not huge for a
simple retrofit. What is the cost for a single dimmer and 3way pair? (I
once saw a retail price sheet for Lutron RadioRa that listed a single
basic dimmer at $395.00. I laughed so hard it hurt.)

* Flexible! Must be able to grow a system to handle a whole house of
lighting, devices, and timers. AV control integration, security systems
and all of that should be possible. I'm biased towards lighting control
but the ideal system covers it all.

* RELIABLE of course, itherwise I'd just stick with X10! Everyone
claims to be reliable but only a good track record counts as proof. Hot
new products come and go every day!

Let the ranting begin!

RickR

Hello Rick,


> So many systems, and not enough time to play!
>
> Everyone wants to be the X10 replacement but who is the closest?
>
> I'm looking for:
> * Cheap to start. No central controler at $500+ and not huge for a
> simple retrofit. What is the cost for a single dimmer and 3way pair? (I
> once saw a retail price sheet for Lutron RadioRa that listed a single
> basic dimmer at $395.00. I laughed so hard it hurt.)
>
> * Flexible! Must be able to grow a system to handle a whole house of
> lighting, devices, and timers. AV control integration, security systems
> and all of that should be possible. I'm biased towards lighting control
> but the ideal system covers it all.
>
> * RELIABLE of course, itherwise I'd just stick with X10! Everyone
> claims to be reliable but only a good track record counts as proof. Hot
> new products come and go every day!
>
> Let the ranting begin!
>

So far I haven't seen anything to wrote home about.

X10 is a poor protocol and old. However, if only the receivers would be
designed right it could perform a whole lot better. Just a few examples:

The input filter, if, ahem, that can be called a filter, has the
passband slope of a barn door. It's really no big deal to fix that.

A simple AM detector over the whole passband doesn't cut it. That
probably is why the sensitivity has been kept so poor. A I/Q detector
followed by a nifty "seek, catch and track" locking could improve this
big time while still being able to track older transmitting devices
where the frequency setting is sloppy (allowing +/- whatever kilohertz
from 120kHz).

Vendors have to grow up and realize that people are using compact
fluorescents. The old dimmable wall switch modules don't cut it anymore
and there needs to be a low cost replacement, not just by a few luxury
brands.

This and a lot more can be fixed to make X10 acceptable for use by
non-engineers. IOW by people who simply won't know what's happening or
what to do when the hallway lamp won't turn off anymore. The stuff needs
to make it into the Lowe's and Home Depots of America, else it's always
going to be a niche product.

AFAICT I don't see such improvements happening.

Oh, and the X10 site needs to lose that nasty popup stuff. To me (and
certainly lots of others) that looks unprofessional.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I think your criteria "cheap, flexible, reliable" are pretty much mutually
exclusive. Plus you want to integrate lights, appliances, (standalone?)
timers, AV and security. The only systems that will even come close will
make the cost of the RadioRA dimmer look cheap by comparison.

"RickR" <info@luminousviews.com> wrote:

>So many systems, and not enough time to play!
>
>Everyone wants to be the X10 replacement but who is the closest?
>
>I'm looking for:
>* Cheap to start. No central controler at $500+ and not huge for a
>simple retrofit. What is the cost for a single dimmer and 3way pair? (I
>once saw a retail price sheet for Lutron RadioRa that listed a single
>basic dimmer at $395.00. I laughed so hard it hurt.)
>
>* Flexible! Must be able to grow a system to handle a whole house of
>lighting, devices, and timers. AV control integration, security systems
>and all of that should be possible. I'm biased towards lighting control
>but the ideal system covers it all.
>
>* RELIABLE of course, itherwise I'd just stick with X10! Everyone
>claims to be reliable but only a good track record counts as proof. Hot
>new products come and go every day!
>
>Let the ranting begin!
>
>RickR


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff.
And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to
him... ;-)

You're right that I'm asking for the ultimate, and any real world
solution will have compromises. If there was an obvious answer I think
I would have heard about it.

But that said, what is the state of the market today? Who gets closest?

RickR

Dave Houston wrote:
> I think your criteria "cheap, flexible, reliable" are pretty much mutually
> exclusive. Plus you want to integrate lights, appliances, (standalone?)
> timers, AV and security. The only systems that will even come close will
> make the cost of the RadioRA dimmer look cheap by comparison.
>
> "RickR" <info@luminousviews.com> wrote:
>
> >So many systems, and not enough time to play!
> >
> >Everyone wants to be the X10 replacement but who is the closest?
> >
> >I'm looking for:
> >* Cheap to start. No central controler at $500+ and not huge for a
> >simple retrofit. What is the cost for a single dimmer and 3way pair? (I
> >once saw a retail price sheet for Lutron RadioRa that listed a single
> >basic dimmer at $395.00. I laughed so hard it hurt.)
> >
> >* Flexible! Must be able to grow a system to handle a whole house of
> >lighting, devices, and timers. AV control integration, security systems
> >and all of that should be possible. I'm biased towards lighting control
> >but the ideal system covers it all.
> >
> >* RELIABLE of course, itherwise I'd just stick with X10! Everyone
> >claims to be reliable but only a good track record counts as proof. Hot
> >new products come and go every day!
> >
> >Let the ranting begin!
> >
> >RickR
>
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
> roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

"RickR" <info@luminousviews.com> wrote:

>Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff.
>And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to
>him... ;-)

X-10 has donme fairly well for about 30 years without listening to Joerg or
anyone else.

>You're right that I'm asking for the ultimate, and any real world
>solution will have compromises. If there was an obvious answer I think
>I would have heard about it.
>
>But that said, what is the state of the market today? Who gets closest?

I think Insteon gets closest as far as light/appliance control in terms of a
reliable PLC protocol. And their prices are competitive with X-10 but it
remains to be seen whether they can deliver acceptable quality at those
prices. The fact that obvious and easily fixed design flaws have been
carried over from earlier designs is worrisome. And I don't recall seeing
anything to indicate they plan to do AV or security.

Homeplug AV purports to do multiple simultaneous HD video streams over the
powerlines but I've yet to read a convincing real world review.

Some security systems have Insteon interfaces so your best bet is to look at
doing your own integration.

I've never thought that AV and security should be integrated with
light/appliance control at the hardware level. AV requires some heavy
computing power while the others can be done with simple, inexpensive
harware. Security really needs to be a standalone function for reliability
and liability reasons. After all the only reason to have a security system
is to get a discount on your insurance - it will not deter the typical
burglar.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Hello Dave,

>
>>Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff.
>>And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to
>>him... ;-)
>
> X-10 has donme fairly well for about 30 years without listening to Joerg or
> anyone else.
>

But how much better could it have done if the receivers were designed well?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:LfWTg.7508$GR.2404@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net ...
> Hello Dave,
>
> >
> >>Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff.
> >>And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to
> >>him... ;-)
> >
> > X-10 has donme fairly well for about 30 years without listening to Joerg or
> > anyone else.
> >
>
> But how much better could it have done if the receivers were designed well?
>
....

"Designed well" comes with a significant cost disadvantage. For what X10 components
cost, "designed adequately" has always been sufficient for my wallet.

From what I've read in this newsgroup, more expensive X10 compatible components
don't always perform in a manner that justifies the higher prices.

Hello Jack,

>>
>>>>Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff.
>>>>And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to
>>>>him... ;-)
>>>
>>>X-10 has donme fairly well for about 30 years without listening to Joerg or
>>>anyone else.
>>>
>>
>>But how much better could it have done if the receivers were designed well?
>>
>
> ...
>
> "Designed well" comes with a significant cost disadvantage. For what X10 components
> cost, "designed adequately" has always been sufficient for my wallet.
>

If they work, that is. We know a lot of people around here and the
number of households other than ours that have X10 is zero. A few folks
have tried and their response to my question was "It doesn't work".

The suggestions I made can mostly be implemented without increasing
cost. Sure, they'd possibly have to use a more modern micro controller
but that doesn't mean a cost penalty. Plus maybe one FET and a few
resistors in order to provide some kind of 120kHz selectivity but that
can be had for around 5c in quantities. If absolutely necessary it could
be done with a regular NPN transistor for less.


> From what I've read in this newsgroup, more expensive X10 compatible components
> don't always perform in a manner that justifies the higher prices.
>

True, especially since some of the varieties sold under the "pro" label
don't seem to differ from regular ones except in price.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

In article <451edb0d.973501187@nntp.fuse.net>,
nobody@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:

> After all the only reason to have a security system
> is to get a discount on your insurance - it will not deter the typical
> burglar.

Depends on the security system. I think mine will do more than deter a
typical burgler. I never asked for a discount on insurance.

--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/

Nick Hull <nhull@isp.com> wrote:

>In article <451edb0d.973501187@nntp.fuse.net>,
> nobody@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:
>
>> After all the only reason to have a security system
>> is to get a discount on your insurance - it will not deter the typical
>> burglar.
>
>Depends on the security system. I think mine will do more than deter a
>typical burgler. I never asked for a discount on insurance.

FBI statistics show that most residential burglaries occur in early
afternoon - the time of day the residences are most likely vacant.

Interviews with burglars serving prison sentences show that they know they
can be in and out and long gone before there's any response to an alarm.
Their time on-site is usually on the order of 10-15 minutes, tops. The only
deterrent is a dog _INSIDE_ the residence as they do not want to be attacked
by a vicious dog. They view an occasional prison term as a "cost of doing
business".

Nationwide, about 95% of alarms are false so police agencies largely ignore
them.

Unless your "security system" does something to change these fundamental
facts, it's unlikely that it improves your security although it will improve
the financial security of the fearmonger (i.e. security specialist) who sold
it to you.

If you're talking about other, non-security related features of your
"security system" then you are not speaking to the question. There are
usually less expensive ways to handle the non-security related features.

If your "security system" is UL approved and your insurnce company offers a
discount for UL approved security systems and you have not taken the
discount, then you apparently have more money than brains.

If you're talking about guns, I think you'll find there are more people
killed inside their residences by intruders using the resident's own guns
than there are dead burglars shot by vigilant residents.

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