A mentor / Advisor ?

Hi All,

Someone mentioned in another forum that I might try this newsgroup for some
help / advise with home Automation.

I'm about to move into a new home, and I think there's an opportunity to
install some home automation products / services.

I have a lot of experience with electrical wiring and computers in general
as well as wired and wireless networking. I don't, however, have any
experience with home automation.

I'm looking for someone that wouldn't mind taking a little time to
correspond with me, either here for the benefit of the group, or via email,
so as to spare the group from my newbiness.

Breifly, what I have in my home now is that the builder ran coax, phone and
cat5e from most every room in the house to the basement, where they are all
currently bundled and un-terminated. The alarm panel is also conveniently
located in the same place.

Anyway, if you have ideas / experience and are willing to spend a little
time helping me figure out what I need, I'd sure appreciate it!

Thanks!
Chris Hackett
chackett@chackett.com

> Someone mentioned in another forum
> that I might try this newsgroup for some help / advise with home Automation.

Hi Chris,

You came to the right place. There are a lot of regulars here who enjoy sharing what we know about home automation. Some of us are
DIYers, some work for professional HA installers and some of us (me included) sell home automation equipment and services to DIYers.

Why not start by telling us what you'd like your HA system to do for you?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the prompt and friendly response!

I'll preface my ideas with the fact that I'm a true novice with this stuff,
so I may be in over my head. Who knows.

Also, I think I'm going to have to implement this stuff in bits and pieces
so as not to break the bank. But I want to make sure that I don't go with
the smallest or cheapest stuff available. Particularly since I have all
these grand ideas. So when it comes to the "brains" of the operation (if
there is such a thing), I'd rather err on the side of too much than too
little.

I think I would eventually like to have most of the "subsystems" controlled
or programmable. HVAC, alarm / fire, lighting, data, cable (a/v) and
telephone.

Since the home is already built and walls are finished, there's probably not
a high likelihood that I'll be interested in fishing new wires to each room.
Although, I would guess that since there is a run to each room already, it
would be relatively easy to pull one of them back with a "chase" or
something, so I can attach a new run, and then pull them both back to the
room.

Here are some of my ideas and thoughts on each system:

Data:
-----
It's cool that each room has a cat5e run to it, but I've been happily using
my wireless network for some time now, and wouldn't be disappointed if I
continued using my wireless. Although I don't know if my wireless Ethernet
will help or interfere with any wireless HA products or services. I
definitely would like to have access to my HomeAutomation system via my data
network (so I can access it from my laptop or from the internet .. maybe
with some nat rules on my firewall).

Phone:
-------
My phone requirements are pretty small. Don't use home phone for much of
anything. Wife uses it occasionally, but for the most part we're cellular
people, and would probably give up home phone service if not for DSL. One
person suggested installing big fancy phones in lieu of a speaker or
intercom system. I don't know if that's necessary or not .. probably not.

HVAC:
--------
I don't know what all the options are with this, but I would suspect that
anything above and beyond the standard programmable thermostat would suffice
for me. It might be cool to have a few temperature sensors in various
places in the home and control the system from those sensors as opposed to
the single sensor that's in the thermostat. In our current home, we moved
the thermostat into the master bedroom instead of out in the hall.
Definitely care more about the temp in the bedroom than in the hall way, and
there's a significant difference.

Security:
---------
Again, I would expect that whatever is above and beyond the standard system
is cool with me. My system now has standard burglar and fire monitoring
with all the usual bells and whistles (zones, motion, perimeter, etc..).

A/V:
------
This is probably one of the bigger issues for us. We have, and LOVE, our
dual tuner DirectTivo. Only problem is that we only have one of them in the
family room. We can't route the signal anywhere else. Well, I suppose we
could, but currently we don't. I'm thinking there must be some sort of
solution to put the TIVO, and all the other AV equipment in the theater, and
use IR "stuff" to control it from other rooms, and program which signal goes
where. My guess is this stuff aint cheap, so it may be cost prohibitive.
Oh .. and whole house audio is always cool.

Lighting:
--------
I don't think there's anything too unique about what I think is cool here.
Pre-Set "scenes" like "evening" or "party" or "sleep time" or whatever. I
had a fellow out that was telling me that I would need to start replacing
all the switches with some kind of $100 switch. That would be WAY expensive
for me .. I would bet the gang of switches in the entry way would cost me
close to $1,000 to replace, and that's only taking 3 steps into the house!

Whew .. that's a lot. I guess what I'm thinking most about now is the main
panel and how much it will cost to make sure that down the road I don't have
to replace it because I didn't give it enough thought.

Ok .. I gotta get back to cutting the grass ...

Thanks so much for your insight!

Chris Hackett



"Robert L Bass" <robertbass1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:O4mdnRqAMLOsndDYnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Someone mentioned in another forum
>> that I might try this newsgroup for some help / advise with home
>> Automation.
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> You came to the right place. There are a lot of regulars here who enjoy
> sharing what we know about home automation. Some of us are DIYers, some
> work for professional HA installers and some of us (me included) sell home
> automation equipment and services to DIYers.
>
> Why not start by telling us what you'd like your HA system to do for you?
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> 941-866-1100
> 4883 Fallcrest Circle
> Sarasota · Florida · 34233
> http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
> =============================>
>

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 16:48:24 -0500, "Chris Hackett" <chackett@chackett.com>
wrote in message <LU73h.1599$1v.1312@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:

>Hi Robert,
>
>Thanks for the prompt and friendly response!
>
>I'll preface my ideas with the fact that I'm a true novice with this stuff,
>so I may be in over my head. Who knows.

From what you've written so far, it's clear that you've given the hardware
part some careful thought.

So let me jump in and suggest that this would be a propitious time to consider
what software and(or) firmware you will use to control it all. For
simplicity's sake, let me assert that the following categories are useful:

1) High end proprietary systems, eg www.Crestron.com , www.AMX.com. These
appear to be out of your price range because typically the entry point is in
the several $K.

2) The "I'm a wiz at C++ (or VB.net, or Forth or whatever), so I'll code it up
myself next weekend" approach. You are a professional, so 'nuff said.

3) PC-centric (aka "federated") systems that depend on a PC in operation 24x7.
(Given your web site, this may hold no terror for you.) Two Wintel contenders
in this arena are www.Homeseer.com and www.charmedquark.com . There are others
that have come and gone (www.premisesystems.com, now apparently available
free) and others that don't quite make it in my opinion ( eg HAL from
www.automatedliving.com ) and others that are Linux based (visit
http://www.linuxha.com/ . I have experience with the first four listed. If
your interests revolve around AV, take a good look at Charmed Quark. Homeseer
supports more hardware and has a larger installed base but is still working
out stability and driver issues from the last version upgrade.

4) Panel-centric in which a central controller like an Elk MG1
http://www.elkproducts.com/products/...rol_Family.htm or Omni Pro
http://www.homeauto.com/Products/HAI...mniSystems.asp runs 24 x7 on
firmware but not necessarily a PC. These have evolved so that they can become
part and parcel of a PC-centric system via (eg) Homeseer or Charmed Quark).

One reason for examining the software early is that unless you intend to enter
that black hole of writing your own drivers, the hardware (security systems,
thermostats, I/O controllers, IR, lighting, AV video, intercom, etc) what
specific hardware your chosen software already supports may be more important
than the sometimes minor difference between hardware systems/brands. You can
avoid some religious wars over hardware preferences in this way.

(Both Robert and I have one of the hardware controllers, and I also use
PC-centric software with external commercial and homebrew hardware
controllers.)

Hope This Helps ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

> I think I would eventually like to have most of the "subsystems"
> controlled or programmable. HVAC, alarm / fire, lighting, data, cable
> (a/v) and telephone.
>
> Since the home is already built and walls are finished, there's probably
> not a high likelihood that I'll be interested in fishing new wires to each
> room. Although, I would guess that since there is a run to each room
> already, it would be relatively easy to pull one of them back with a
> "chase" or something, so I can attach a new run, and then pull them both
> back to the room.

That may or may not be doable, depending on how the cables have been run.
Most of the time staples and holes too small make repulling difficult to
impossible. However, if there''s a basement with exposed floor joists above
or if the home is a ranch style it's not hard to run new cables. More on
that later.

> Here are some of my ideas and thoughts on each system:
>
> Data:
> -----
> It's cool that each room has a cat5e run to it, but I've been happily
> using my wireless network for some time now, and wouldn't be disappointed
> if I continued using my wireless. Although I don't know if my wireless
> Ethernet will help or interfere with any wireless HA products or services.
> I definitely would like to have access to my HomeAutomation system via my
> data network (so I can access it from my laptop or from the internet ..
> maybe with some nat rules on my firewall).

As a general rule, wireless HA and wireless Internet can coexist peacefully.

> Phone:
> -------
> My phone requirements are pretty small. Don't use home phone for much of
> anything. Wife uses it occasionally, but for the most part we're cellular
> people, and would probably give up home phone service if not for DSL. One
> person suggested installing big fancy phones in lieu of a speaker or
> intercom system. I don't know if that's necessary or not .. probably not.

Telephone intercoms tend to cost more than they're worth, especially if you
don't really need the phone service. I usually prefer a separate intercom
system or even one with music though the music/intercoms don't sound as good
as multi-room stereo systems. There are several intercoms and even CCTV
systems available that can ride on your CAT5 infrastructure.

> HVAC:
> --------
> I don't know what all the options are with this, but I would suspect that
> anything above and beyond the standard programmable thermostat would
> suffice for me. It might be cool to have a few temperature sensors in
> various places in the home and control the system from those sensors as
> opposed to the single sensor that's in the thermostat. In our current
> home, we moved the thermostat into the master bedroom instead of out in
> the hall. Definitely care more about the temp in the bedroom than in the
> hall way, and there's a significant difference.

Several of the popular HA controllers support remote temp and/or humidity
sensors and can control simple to multi-zone HVAC systems. The ELK-M1 Gold
system which I sell does that nicely and can work with a number of different
brands of "communicating" thermostats. A competing brand called HAI has
similar capabilities and is worth investigating.

> Security:
> ---------
> Again, I would expect that whatever is above and beyond the standard
> system is cool with me. My system now has standard burglar and fire
> monitoring with all the usual bells and whistles (zones, motion,
> perimeter, etc..).

Almost all of the serious HA controllers also do security, fire, panic.
ELK's system comes with 16 input zones (sensing loops), expandable to over
200.

> A/V:
> ------
> This is probably one of the bigger issues for us. We have, and LOVE, our
> dual tuner DirectTivo. Only problem is that we only have one of them in
> the family room. We can't route the signal anywhere else. Well, I
> suppose we could, but currently we don't. I'm thinking there must be some
> sort of solution to put the TIVO, and all the other AV equipment in the
> theater, and use IR "stuff" to control it from other rooms, and program
> which signal goes where. My guess is this stuff aint cheap, so it may be
> cost prohibitive. Oh .. and whole house audio is always cool.

Russound and Xantech both make excellent multi-room A/V controllers that can
interface with your existing hardware, control it and "broadcast" the signal
over ordinary cables to speakers and TV's throughout the house.

> Lighting:
> --------
> I don't think there's anything too unique about what I think is cool here.
> Pre-Set "scenes" like "evening" or "party" or "sleep time" or whatever. I
> had a fellow out that was telling me that I would need to start replacing
> all the switches with some kind of $100 switch. That would be WAY
> expensive for me .. I would bet the gang of switches in the entry way
> would cost me close to $1,000 to replace, and that's only taking 3 steps
> into the house!

There are various solutions from X10, Zwave, etc., which run from $15 to $45
per switch. X10 is the lowest grade and price. Zwave is good and is
reasoinably proced. Insteon is another mid-priced offering from a
competitor called SmartHome. Some folks like it though there are a few
problems that have been reported here. I don't sell any of these although I
do carry a Zwave intereface for the ELK system and X10 interfaces for
several others. I'm still up in the air about which I will use in my new
(to me) home. At this point it looks like I'll go with Zwave.

> Whew .. that's a lot. I guess what I'm thinking most about now is the
> main panel and how much it will cost to make sure that down the road I
> don't have to replace it because I didn't give it enough thought.

You can get a starter kit consisting of master control panel, keypad and
various accessories for ~$500-600, depending on what you choose and where
you get it. MOst of these systems are readily available online.

> Ok .. I gotta get back to cutting the grass ...

Have fun.

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Home Electronics
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

PS -- I'm using my laptop at the moment so the username is different, but
it's still me. :^)

Chris Hackett wrote:

>
> Data:
> -----
> It's cool that each room has a cat5e run to it, but I've been happily using
> my wireless network for some time now, and wouldn't be disappointed if I
> continued using my wireless. Although I don't know if my wireless Ethernet
> will help or interfere with any wireless HA products or services. I
> definitely would like to have access to my HomeAutomation system via my data
> network (so I can access it from my laptop or from the internet .. maybe
> with some nat rules on my firewall).
>

Don't buy anything that would interfere with your wi-fi. Would you go
back to looking for the Ethernet socket in every room you take your
laptop into? I bet they didn't wire the bathroom, which I take my
laptop into everyday. Guess what I'm doing now?

Everybody goes cordless, even though most homes have a telephone socket
in every room.

There are many things wi-fi, wi-fi cameras, media adapter, and even
residential main phone replacement. Then the rest are most likely have
a USB for plugging into a PC. Get the free VNC, which make the
commercial PC Anywhere like a joke, and you can control you home
desktop or a dedicated computer over the internet as if you are at
home.

> Phone:
> -------
> My phone requirements are pretty small. Don't use home phone for much of
> anything. Wife uses it occasionally, but for the most part we're cellular
> people, and would probably give up home phone service if not for DSL. One
> person suggested installing big fancy phones in lieu of a speaker or
> intercom system. I don't know if that's necessary or not .. probably not.
>

You should go for internet phone - Sunrocket or Vonage. Not only they
will save money for light (and heavy) users, they have full features.
You can see your phone logs and read your voicemails over the internet.
You can bring your phone with you anywhere in the world and people
still reach you as if you are at home, and the call is local charge
wise. You have E911 instead of just 911. But if there's a power
outage, your modem fails or your wireless router fails ... They never
failed on me for years, 24/7. But you have cell phones for back up.

The adapter is free if you want to keep your old telephones. But if
you pick the wi-fi phone, you can use it on any hotspots I think.

But for DSL, you can't port your old number to the new service without
giving up your DSL service. Go cable, 5 M is rather pleasant.

If you need an intercom, you need video intercom. Otherwise a camera
is safer than voice intercom. If you get a wi-fi cam around $100, you
can use it as a security cam when you leave home. You can see it over
the internet without your PC.

> HVAC:
> --------
> I don't know what all the options are with this, but I would suspect that
> anything above and beyond the standard programmable thermostat would suffice
> for me. It might be cool to have a few temperature sensors in various
> places in the home and control the system from those sensors as opposed to
> the single sensor that's in the thermostat. In our current home, we moved
> the thermostat into the master bedroom instead of out in the hall.
> Definitely care more about the temp in the bedroom than in the hall way, and
> there's a significant difference.

I used wireless programmable thermostat Totaline. I carry it where I
need the temperature to be regulated. Evening time, center of the
living room. Night time, the coolest or hottest bedroom. More
thermostat is a waste, you only get bad compromises. Optimum location
of thermostat depends on season and time. If all your rooms are of
equal temperature no matte what, you just need the plain old
thermostat.

>
> Security:
> ---------
> Again, I would expect that whatever is above and beyond the standard system
> is cool with me. My system now has standard burglar and fire monitoring
> with all the usual bells and whistles (zones, motion, perimeter, etc..).

Think wi-fi cam. The range should be better than any of the x10 craps
and the 1.2 GHz tiny craps. By definition you get as many cams as your
wireless router can support NAT. Not just 1 channel for the 1.2GHz
craps and 4 channels for the 2.4G X-10 craps or similar craps on eBay.
You can see your home when you are on vacation.

>
> A/V:
> ------
> This is probably one of the bigger issues for us. We have, and LOVE, our
> dual tuner DirectTivo. Only problem is that we only have one of them in the
> family room. We can't route the signal anywhere else. Well, I suppose we
> could, but currently we don't. I'm thinking there must be some sort of
> solution to put the TIVO, and all the other AV equipment in the theater, and
> use IR "stuff" to control it from other rooms, and program which signal goes
> where. My guess is this stuff aint cheap, so it may be cost prohibitive.
> Oh .. and whole house audio is always cool.

The newer Tivo's are all network aware. You can have a Ethernet
adapter or a wi-fi adapter. Multi room transfers are the aim, but I
think you need 1 Tivo for each TV. Well if you have plasma in each
room, I guess the price of tivo doesn't bother you. I suppose you can
control all your Tivo's via your laptop wirelessly. I think you can
grab the video with your desktop and beam it via wi-fi and receive it
with a wi-fi media adapter, if that's cheaper than a tivo box.

There are always those dump IR range extenders, which turn IR signal
into RF and back. No line of sight is needed.

>
> Lighting:
> --------
> I don't think there's anything too unique about what I think is cool here.
> Pre-Set "scenes" like "evening" or "party" or "sleep time" or whatever. I
> had a fellow out that was telling me that I would need to start replacing
> all the switches with some kind of $100 switch. That would be WAY expensive
> for me .. I would bet the gang of switches in the entry way would cost me
> close to $1,000 to replace, and that's only taking 3 steps into the house!
>
> Whew .. that's a lot. I guess what I'm thinking most about now is the main
> panel and how much it will cost to make sure that down the road I don't have
> to replace it because I didn't give it enough thought.

Even if you throw money indiscriminately into X-10, a main filter, lots
of blockers for noisy appliances, it's much cheaper. Then it's fully
programmable via PC, and executed at the click of a button. For
brownouts, you need some sort of interruptible power supply for the
lights, which I guess is not practical. The alternative is battery
operated wireless switches, which by default should remember the on-off
state before brownout. For the new standard, you have to wait till
next year. Now there are propriety systems.

"Chris Hackett" <chackett@chackett.com> wrote in message
news:2a73h.1587$1v.1451@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Hi All,
>
> Someone mentioned in another forum that I might try this newsgroup for
> some help / advise with home Automation.
>
> I'm about to move into a new home, and I think there's an opportunity to
> install some home automation products / services.
>

First, you must snatch the pebble from the hand of the Master, Grasshopper.
Hmmm... There's a business opportunity: Shoalin Automation.

"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:e19qk2dlefv85ss5nr5bc3flqsp28ok21m@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 16:48:24 -0500, "Chris Hackett" <chackett@chackett.com>
> wrote in message <LU73h.1599$1v.1312@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
>
>>Hi Robert,
>>
>>Thanks for the prompt and friendly response!
>>
>>I'll preface my ideas with the fact that I'm a true novice with this
>>stuff,
>>so I may be in over my head. Who knows.
>
> From what you've written so far, it's clear that you've given the hardware
> part some careful thought.
>
> So let me jump in and suggest that this would be a propitious time to
> consider
> what software and(or) firmware you will use to control it all. For
> simplicity's sake, let me assert that the following categories are useful:
>
> 1) High end proprietary systems, eg www.Crestron.com , www.AMX.com. These
> appear to be out of your price range because typically the entry point is
> in
> the several $K.

I'll look into these. I'm hoping that my total cost to get the foundation
laid won't be more than a couple thousand dollars, you you may be right that
these are out of my price range.


>
> 2) The "I'm a wiz at C++ (or VB.net, or Forth or whatever), so I'll code
> it up
> myself next weekend" approach. You are a professional, so 'nuff said.
>

This doesn't describe me


> 3) PC-centric (aka "federated") systems that depend on a PC in operation
> 24x7.
> (Given your web site, this may hold no terror for you.) Two Wintel
> contenders
> in this arena are www.Homeseer.com and www.charmedquark.com . There are
> others
> that have come and gone (www.premisesystems.com, now apparently available
> free) and others that don't quite make it in my opinion ( eg HAL from
> www.automatedliving.com ) and others that are Linux based (visit
> http://www.linuxha.com/ . I have experience with the first four listed. If
> your interests revolve around AV, take a good look at Charmed Quark.
> Homeseer
> supports more hardware and has a larger installed base but is still
> working
> out stability and driver issues from the last version upgrade.

Someone else contacted me and encouraged me to look at the Homeseer stuff.
They had good success with it, and suggested that there are lots of modules
and stuff for integrating and controlling lots of different systems and
devices.

>
> 4) Panel-centric in which a central controller like an Elk MG1
> http://www.elkproducts.com/products/...rol_Family.htm or Omni Pro
> http://www.homeauto.com/Products/HAI...mniSystems.asp runs 24 x7 on
> firmware but not necessarily a PC. These have evolved so that they can
> become
> part and parcel of a PC-centric system via (eg) Homeseer or Charmed
> Quark).

I would like to have an in-wall panel at some point. If I can get the right
system at the right price, I'll go ahead an purchase one now.

>
> One reason for examining the software early is that unless you intend to
> enter
> that black hole of writing your own drivers, the hardware (security
> systems,
> thermostats, I/O controllers, IR, lighting, AV video, intercom, etc) what
> specific hardware your chosen software already supports may be more
> important
> than the sometimes minor difference between hardware systems/brands. You
> can
> avoid some religious wars over hardware preferences in this way.

I am positive that I don't want to, or have the ability to, write my own
drivers. One key aspect of the system will have to be either
"self-contained" or "simplicity." This is for re-sale purposes. I don't
want a new owner to be intimidated and scared of a complicated home
automation system. I don't want people to feel like instead of their
computer crashing, their house will crash, and they'll always be having to
"reboot" their house in order to turn on the heat

>
> (Both Robert and I have one of the hardware controllers, and I also use
> PC-centric software with external commercial and homebrew hardware
> controllers.)
>
> Hope This Helps ... Marc
> Marc_F_Hult
> www.ECOntrol.org

Thanks so much for your information. I really appreciate it.

Chris Hackett

"news.comcast.net" <acoutinhobass@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dtGdnYfM0YhxtdDYnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> I think I would eventually like to have most of the "subsystems"
>> controlled or programmable. HVAC, alarm / fire, lighting, data, cable
>> (a/v) and telephone.
>>
>> Since the home is already built and walls are finished, there's probably
>> not a high likelihood that I'll be interested in fishing new wires to
>> each room. Although, I would guess that since there is a run to each room
>> already, it would be relatively easy to pull one of them back with a
>> "chase" or something, so I can attach a new run, and then pull them both
>> back to the room.
>
> That may or may not be doable, depending on how the cables have been run.
> Most of the time staples and holes too small make repulling difficult to
> impossible. However, if there''s a basement with exposed floor joists
> above or if the home is a ranch style it's not hard to run new cables.
> More on that later.

Excellent point. I didn't think of staples, and I've been "had" by staples
on more than one occassion!!

>
>> Here are some of my ideas and thoughts on each system:
>>
>> Data:
>> -----
>> It's cool that each room has a cat5e run to it, but I've been happily
>> using my wireless network for some time now, and wouldn't be disappointed
>> if I continued using my wireless. Although I don't know if my wireless
>> Ethernet will help or interfere with any wireless HA products or
>> services. I definitely would like to have access to my HomeAutomation
>> system via my data network (so I can access it from my laptop or from the
>> internet .. maybe with some nat rules on my firewall).
>
> As a general rule, wireless HA and wireless Internet can coexist
> peacefully.

Yay.

>
>> Phone:
>> -------
>> My phone requirements are pretty small. Don't use home phone for much of
>> anything. Wife uses it occasionally, but for the most part we're
>> cellular people, and would probably give up home phone service if not for
>> DSL. One person suggested installing big fancy phones in lieu of a
>> speaker or intercom system. I don't know if that's necessary or not ..
>> probably not.
>
> Telephone intercoms tend to cost more than they're worth, especially if
> you don't really need the phone service. I usually prefer a separate
> intercom system or even one with music though the music/intercoms don't
> sound as good as multi-room stereo systems. There are several intercoms
> and even CCTV systems available that can ride on your CAT5 infrastructure.

Sounds like this would confirm my thoughts that telephone isn't worth the
hassle.

>
>> HVAC:
>> --------
>> I don't know what all the options are with this, but I would suspect that
>> anything above and beyond the standard programmable thermostat would
>> suffice for me. It might be cool to have a few temperature sensors in
>> various places in the home and control the system from those sensors as
>> opposed to the single sensor that's in the thermostat. In our current
>> home, we moved the thermostat into the master bedroom instead of out in
>> the hall. Definitely care more about the temp in the bedroom than in the
>> hall way, and there's a significant difference.
>
> Several of the popular HA controllers support remote temp and/or humidity
> sensors and can control simple to multi-zone HVAC systems. The ELK-M1
> Gold system which I sell does that nicely and can work with a number of
> different brands of "communicating" thermostats. A competing brand called
> HAI has similar capabilities and is worth investigating.

I think I'll research, and probably use the ELK-M1 Gold. It's been
recommended several times, and seems popular and supportable.

>
>> Security:
>> ---------
>> Again, I would expect that whatever is above and beyond the standard
>> system is cool with me. My system now has standard burglar and fire
>> monitoring with all the usual bells and whistles (zones, motion,
>> perimeter, etc..).
>
> Almost all of the serious HA controllers also do security, fire, panic.
> ELK's system comes with 16 input zones (sensing loops), expandable to over
> 200.
>
>> A/V:
>> ------
>> This is probably one of the bigger issues for us. We have, and LOVE, our
>> dual tuner DirectTivo. Only problem is that we only have one of them in
>> the family room. We can't route the signal anywhere else. Well, I
>> suppose we could, but currently we don't. I'm thinking there must be
>> some sort of solution to put the TIVO, and all the other AV equipment in
>> the theater, and use IR "stuff" to control it from other rooms, and
>> program which signal goes where. My guess is this stuff aint cheap, so
>> it may be cost prohibitive. Oh .. and whole house audio is always cool.
>
> Russound and Xantech both make excellent multi-room A/V controllers that
> can interface with your existing hardware, control it and "broadcast" the
> signal over ordinary cables to speakers and TV's throughout the house.

Gosh, I sure have a lot of reading and educating to get done in the next
couple weeks! Thanks for these recommendations.

>
>> Lighting:
>> --------
>> I don't think there's anything too unique about what I think is cool
>> here. Pre-Set "scenes" like "evening" or "party" or "sleep time" or
>> whatever. I had a fellow out that was telling me that I would need to
>> start replacing all the switches with some kind of $100 switch. That
>> would be WAY expensive for me .. I would bet the gang of switches in the
>> entry way would cost me close to $1,000 to replace, and that's only
>> taking 3 steps into the house!
>
> There are various solutions from X10, Zwave, etc., which run from $15 to
> $45 per switch. X10 is the lowest grade and price. Zwave is good and is
> reasoinably proced. Insteon is another mid-priced offering from a
> competitor called SmartHome. Some folks like it though there are a few
> problems that have been reported here. I don't sell any of these although
> I do carry a Zwave intereface for the ELK system and X10 interfaces for
> several others. I'm still up in the air about which I will use in my new
> (to me) home. At this point it looks like I'll go with Zwave.

Yeah, so far the recommendations have been either Zwave or Insteon. I have
no idea which way I'll go. I'm probablhy leaning toward Insteon, but I
don't really know why. One thing I'm not excited about is bulky adapters
and stuff. I don't know what they're called, but I think I saw them on some
sort of "starter kit" from Insteon. I really want the sytem to be
transparent or invisible...

>
>> Whew .. that's a lot. I guess what I'm thinking most about now is the
>> main panel and how much it will cost to make sure that down the road I
>> don't have to replace it because I didn't give it enough thought.
>
> You can get a starter kit consisting of master control panel, keypad and
> various accessories for ~$500-600, depending on what you choose and where
> you get it. MOst of these systems are readily available online.

This is less expensive than I expected. I wonder if you could make a
recommendation of hardware and software based on a DIY'ers budjet of around
$2,000 give or take..Maybe a recommendation from some folks would help me
get focused and start actually making some progress!

Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciare it!

Chris Hackett

>
>> Ok .. I gotta get back to cutting the grass ...
>
> Have fun.
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> Bass Home Electronics
> www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
>
> PS -- I'm using my laptop at the moment so the username is different, but
> it's still me. :^)
>
>

"accidental plumber" <aplayerinla@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162685652.562665.308360@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
> Chris Hackett wrote:
>
>>
>> Data:
>> -----
>> It's cool that each room has a cat5e run to it, but I've been happily
>> using
>> my wireless network for some time now, and wouldn't be disappointed if I
>> continued using my wireless. Although I don't know if my wireless
>> Ethernet
>> will help or interfere with any wireless HA products or services. I
>> definitely would like to have access to my HomeAutomation system via my
>> data
>> network (so I can access it from my laptop or from the internet .. maybe
>> with some nat rules on my firewall).
>>
>
> Don't buy anything that would interfere with your wi-fi. Would you go
> back to looking for the Ethernet socket in every room you take your
> laptop into? I bet they didn't wire the bathroom, which I take my
> laptop into everyday. Guess what I'm doing now?
>
> Everybody goes cordless, even though most homes have a telephone socket
> in every room.
>
> There are many things wi-fi, wi-fi cameras, media adapter, and even
> residential main phone replacement. Then the rest are most likely have
> a USB for plugging into a PC. Get the free VNC, which make the
> commercial PC Anywhere like a joke, and you can control you home
> desktop or a dedicated computer over the internet as if you are at
> home.
>
>> Phone:
>> -------
>> My phone requirements are pretty small. Don't use home phone for much of
>> anything. Wife uses it occasionally, but for the most part we're
>> cellular
>> people, and would probably give up home phone service if not for DSL.
>> One
>> person suggested installing big fancy phones in lieu of a speaker or
>> intercom system. I don't know if that's necessary or not .. probably
>> not.
>>
>
> You should go for internet phone - Sunrocket or Vonage. Not only they
> will save money for light (and heavy) users, they have full features.
> You can see your phone logs and read your voicemails over the internet.
> You can bring your phone with you anywhere in the world and people
> still reach you as if you are at home, and the call is local charge
> wise. You have E911 instead of just 911. But if there's a power
> outage, your modem fails or your wireless router fails ... They never
> failed on me for years, 24/7. But you have cell phones for back up.

I have Sunrocket now. Service has been medicore so far. Maybe if we switch
to cable, and give up the DSL we'll have a different experience with them.

>
> The adapter is free if you want to keep your old telephones. But if
> you pick the wi-fi phone, you can use it on any hotspots I think.
>
> But for DSL, you can't port your old number to the new service without
> giving up your DSL service. Go cable, 5 M is rather pleasant.

This issue gets so complicated for us. We've looked into giving up the DSL
and moving to cable, mostly cause we don't want to fool with Bellsouth
anymore. I could never give up my Dual Tuner Tivo, and as far as I know
that's only available on DirectTV. I don't know how much un-bundled data
service from our cable company costs, or if it's even available. I'm
guessing that the cost of unbundled data service from the cable company is
more than the savings of giving up bellsouth and DSL. Of course it's all
moot if I have to give up the dual tuner tivo. That's just not gonna happen


>
> If you need an intercom, you need video intercom. Otherwise a camera
> is safer than voice intercom. If you get a wi-fi cam around $100, you
> can use it as a security cam when you leave home. You can see it over
> the internet without your PC.

This is cool stuff. I would like to do something like this if it's 1) Not
unsightly and can integrate with the environment reasoably well .. and 2)
It's low-to-no maintainence.

>
>> HVAC:
>> --------
>> I don't know what all the options are with this, but I would suspect that
>> anything above and beyond the standard programmable thermostat would
>> suffice
>> for me. It might be cool to have a few temperature sensors in various
>> places in the home and control the system from those sensors as opposed
>> to
>> the single sensor that's in the thermostat. In our current home, we
>> moved
>> the thermostat into the master bedroom instead of out in the hall.
>> Definitely care more about the temp in the bedroom than in the hall way,
>> and
>> there's a significant difference.
>
> I used wireless programmable thermostat Totaline. I carry it where I
> need the temperature to be regulated. Evening time, center of the
> living room. Night time, the coolest or hottest bedroom. More
> thermostat is a waste, you only get bad compromises. Optimum location
> of thermostat depends on season and time. If all your rooms are of
> equal temperature no matte what, you just need the plain old
> thermostat.

That's an interesting concept. I'm not sure if it's for me or not, but
definitely makes sense. I'm not sure if I'll remember or want to carry a
thermostat with me from place to place. I wonder if there's a solution
where I can install temperature sensors in various places, and then program
the thermostat to regulate the temperature based on different, stationary,
sensors .. maybe based on time of day as well.

>
>>
>> Security:
>> ---------
>> Again, I would expect that whatever is above and beyond the standard
>> system
>> is cool with me. My system now has standard burglar and fire monitoring
>> with all the usual bells and whistles (zones, motion, perimeter, etc..).
>
> Think wi-fi cam. The range should be better than any of the x10 craps
> and the 1.2 GHz tiny craps. By definition you get as many cams as your
> wireless router can support NAT. Not just 1 channel for the 1.2GHz
> craps and 4 channels for the 2.4G X-10 craps or similar craps on eBay.
> You can see your home when you are on vacation.

I don't understand a lot of what you're saying, and I would like to install
some camers, as long as they're low maintainence and relatively well
integrated into my environment. I don't want them to be an eyesore. And
while the cameras are cool, the motion and perimeter sensors and central
monitoring are important to me. More important than cameras. If someone is
intruding into my home or my "space" I'm much less interested in seeing
them, than in getting rid of them.

>
>>
>> A/V:
>> ------
>> This is probably one of the bigger issues for us. We have, and LOVE, our
>> dual tuner DirectTivo. Only problem is that we only have one of them in
>> the
>> family room. We can't route the signal anywhere else. Well, I suppose
>> we
>> could, but currently we don't. I'm thinking there must be some sort of
>> solution to put the TIVO, and all the other AV equipment in the theater,
>> and
>> use IR "stuff" to control it from other rooms, and program which signal
>> goes
>> where. My guess is this stuff aint cheap, so it may be cost prohibitive.
>> Oh .. and whole house audio is always cool.
>
> The newer Tivo's are all network aware. You can have a Ethernet
> adapter or a wi-fi adapter. Multi room transfers are the aim, but I
> think you need 1 Tivo for each TV. Well if you have plasma in each
> room, I guess the price of tivo doesn't bother you. I suppose you can
> control all your Tivo's via your laptop wirelessly. I think you can
> grab the video with your desktop and beam it via wi-fi and receive it
> with a wi-fi media adapter, if that's cheaper than a tivo box.
>
> There are always those dump IR range extenders, which turn IR signal
> into RF and back. No line of sight is needed.

Yeah .. it's been a while since I looked intothe Tivo's..I guess they're on
series 3 now?

I don't know what the practical reality is of what you described above. If
my wife is in the kitchen preparing dinner, I don't want it to be a 3 step
move that requires punching keys on a wireless laptop if she wants to turn
on the tv and watch something from the tivo in the kitchen. I realize that
if I only have 1 tivo, then it can only send one signal at a time .. so that
anyone in the house that's watching the tivo will all be watching the same
thing. I think we can live with that.

>
>>
>> Lighting:
>> --------
>> I don't think there's anything too unique about what I think is cool
>> here.
>> Pre-Set "scenes" like "evening" or "party" or "sleep time" or whatever.
>> I
>> had a fellow out that was telling me that I would need to start replacing
>> all the switches with some kind of $100 switch. That would be WAY
>> expensive
>> for me .. I would bet the gang of switches in the entry way would cost me
>> close to $1,000 to replace, and that's only taking 3 steps into the
>> house!
>>
>> Whew .. that's a lot. I guess what I'm thinking most about now is the
>> main
>> panel and how much it will cost to make sure that down the road I don't
>> have
>> to replace it because I didn't give it enough thought.
>
> Even if you throw money indiscriminately into X-10, a main filter, lots
> of blockers for noisy appliances, it's much cheaper. Then it's fully
> programmable via PC, and executed at the click of a button. For
> brownouts, you need some sort of interruptible power supply for the
> lights, which I guess is not practical. The alternative is battery
> operated wireless switches, which by default should remember the on-off
> state before brownout. For the new standard, you have to wait till
> next year. Now there are propriety systems.
>
So what's the implication of this? Do you have a recommendation or
suggestion for lighting?

Thanks your all your information .. I appreciate it!

Chris Hackett