No more X10 at Radio Shack?

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:r0%

<stuff snipped>

> Ours still flashes 12:00 after an outage. X10 let us down here: We
> bought the X10 universal remote and on the picture it had a "Menu"
> button in the lower left. When I unpacked it I discovered that it had a
> "Guide" button in that space and no menu button. Hence we cannot program
> the clock or anything else at all except by unplugging again and holding
> some magic buttons on the VCR itself. Its original remote had died.

Is it *really* their fault? If you're talking about one of their learning
Universal remotes, it *could* learn the code you're missing in all
probability, but your original died. Which of the many X-10 remotes are you
talking about?

> Tried dozens of VCR codes in the booklet and none turns that useless
> guide button into menu mode :-(

If it's a learning remote, maybe there's someone that can lend you an
original remote just for learning purposes if you list the exact make and
model of the gear you want to control.

I just had a situation where I couldn't get my X-10 learning remote to learn
the codes to control my Sony DVD jukebox. It was a real bummer because up
until that acquisition, the X-10 remote was able to learn any command it
didn't have embedded in its ROM. Dave Houston helped me out tremendously by
suggesting that I use as short a teaching press as possible because (IIRC)
Sony used atypically short codes. This was in direct contravention to the
advice I had gotten about programming my Ocelot, but lo and behold, I was
able to teach my X-10 remote to control the basic functions of the jukebox.
For some things, we still need the original remotes, but it's very nice to
have a remote that controls all the lights, the AV gear and the CCTV and can
perform 95 per cent of the work that needs doing. Very nice. Thanks Dave!

> > How many of the "new and better" systems will still be around 30 years
from
> > now?
> >
>
> Good point. "New and better" is not only about technology, they also
> need to understand marketing. So far I don't see that happen.

Dude. They ramped up sales at X10.com using popunders, popovers, popups,
popouts and spam at a rate that kept breaking records. I'm not saying those
were *good* tactics but they certainly moved the product. And now I can
benefit from all of the 2 for 1 vouchers X10.com used to give away. Those
vouchers caused people to buy far more gear than they ever needed (that's
the hallmark of effective marketing - selling snow to Eskimos). I liked
the vouchers, personally, and I know a LOT of people here bought lots of
gear with vouchers. The popup crap I could live without and did, as soon as
I got a popup blocker.

To get X-10 to work reliably in the new world, you need filters, you need a
meter and you need a signal booster like Jeff's XTB. That's really a small
cost to protect for what some is a fairly large investment in X-10 gear.
IIRC, there was a comment here a while back that claimed over 5 million X-10
devices are in use. If true, it's going to be a while before any other HA
technology reaches that number.

--
Bobby G.

> While I'd love to have the reliability of Centralite or Lutron's RF
system,
> I don't think I'd ever be able to recover the cost when selling the house.

Daily satisfaction of reliable operation makes RadioRA more than worth the
price paid.

When I sell the house the new owners don't even need to care about the
switches. They're just like normal switches, requiring nothing special
about using them. Unlike the X10 crap.

I switched to RadioRa a couple of years ago and it's been absolutely
fantastic. Absolutely no troubles whatsoever with switch operation,
installation and reliability. They "just work" as one should rightfully
expect. X10 is a fraud perpetrated on the public and deserves it's decline
in sales. The stuff's just junk and nobody in their right mind should waste
any time or money on it. Cheap is worthless when it aggravates like only
X10 can.

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Rr6dnX3dnuPEWPHYnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

> I switched to RadioRa a couple of years ago and it's been absolutely
> fantastic. Absolutely no troubles whatsoever with switch operation,
> installation and reliability. They "just work" as one should rightfully
> expect.

X10 is both a protocol and a product. While X10 products are cheap, they do
work. Those brown BSR modules we bought almost 30 years ago are still
pushed into service for Christmas decorations. How many electronic devices
you own now will still be in use 30 years from now?

The X10 protocol does have some challenges in today’s environment. Not many
of the electronic devices found in a typical home today were in use when the
X10 protocol was developed. As the power distribution environment becomes
more complex, it does take some work to keep it “X10 friendly”.

Our X10 modules and Leviton X10 switches “just work”, doing what they should
day in and day out. Who can ask for more?

Jeff

"The stuff's just junk and nobody in their right mind should waste any time
or money on it."

I have used X10 since 1981 (+100 modules in the house currently), am still
happy with it, and by latest account I am still in my right mind.

Just because YOU couldn't get it to work, does not mean it is junk.

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Rr6dnX3dnuPEWPHYnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> While I'd love to have the reliability of Centralite or Lutron's RF
> system,
>> I don't think I'd ever be able to recover the cost when selling the
>> house.
>
> Daily satisfaction of reliable operation makes RadioRA more than worth the
> price paid.
>
> When I sell the house the new owners don't even need to care about the
> switches. They're just like normal switches, requiring nothing special
> about using them. Unlike the X10 crap.
>
> I switched to RadioRa a couple of years ago and it's been absolutely
> fantastic. Absolutely no troubles whatsoever with switch operation,
> installation and reliability. They "just work" as one should rightfully
> expect. X10 is a fraud perpetrated on the public and deserves it's
> decline
> in sales. The stuff's just junk and nobody in their right mind should
> waste
> any time or money on it. Cheap is worthless when it aggravates like only
> X10 can.
>

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> When I sell the house the new owners don't even need to care about the
> switches. They're just like normal switches, requiring nothing special
> about using them.

But will you be able to recover the cost of your investment in RA? I have
my doubts. I'm not into making unrecoverable investments - too many years
of watching HGTV. I also understand that there's a 32/64 device limit, well
under the 256 that X-10 offers. That immediately puts RA in the back seat
because, believe it or not, I have 48 codes in play and will probably expand
that.

More importantly, RF is *always* subject to interference. I suppose you can
Faradize your house to keep out EMI from some nearby government transmitter
but that would be a bitch. Easier to filter the powerline as it comes into
the house than the entire radio spectrum as it pours through the walls.
More importantly to me, X-10 is really a dual protocol, using both RF and
PLC. That gives me a fast fallback position if the local AF base begins
transmitting a signal that ends up jamming the RF. Not likely, but not
impossible either.


> Unlike the X10 crap.

Yes. It's all crap. Anyone reading this should box all their X-10 stuff up
and sell it on Ebay before the bottom falls out completely. Palmpads,
Stickaswitches and their larger AAA powered cousins, appliance modules -
sell them now before it's too late. No reserve price either. (But drop me
a line if you do!) (/sarcasm off)

> I switched to RadioRa a couple of years ago and it's been absolutely
> fantastic. Absolutely no troubles whatsoever with switch operation,
> installation and reliability. They "just work" as one should rightfully
> expect. X10 is a fraud perpetrated on the public and deserves it's
decline
> in sales. The stuff's just junk and nobody in their right mind should
waste
> any time or money on it. Cheap is worthless when it aggravates like only
> X10 can.

It all depends on your "use profile." Obviously, for a lot of people, X-10
still does the job. Thanks to Jeff V. and the XTB, the major problem I've
suffered (weak PLC signal) has disappeared and now I am troubled more by the
rotten switch feeling of some of the switches. Would I like something
better? Sure! But there's the little problem of never being able to
justify to my self or my wife any schema that involved a cost of over $100 a
load. Or even $50 a load. Her attitude is that we have HA because *I* am
too lazy to get up and turn off a light. It's hard to advance that position
into one where we spend $1,000's on something that we'll never recover in a
sale. For us, something like a granite countertop upgrade would be a much
better long-term investment in so many ways than something like RadioRA. . .

But it's really a case of "to each his own." Reliability is important to
you. Not breaking the budget is important to me. Not putting lots of money
into a house we'll be selling soon is also important to me. X-10 lets me do
a lot of things for very little money. Not perfectly, but quite well enough
to suit my tastes.

--
Bobby G.

You might want to try Pigs Electronics.
(http://www.pigselectronics.com/products/cartfrm.htm)
They have reasonably good prices and shipping. I have ordered from them
before and had no problems.

Dave

"Dave" <dcreich@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1164650050.111732.10570@n67g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Yesterday I tried to purchase an appliance module at the local Radio
> Shack (Rochester, MN) and was told that RS is discontinuing its X10
> Plug N Power products. There may be some good deals at stores that
> still have inventory.
>
> What is the best alternative to Radio Shack for me, an infrequent buyer
> of basic X10 products?
>
> Thanks in advance, Dave
>

> "The stuff's just junk and nobody in their right mind should waste any
time
> or money on it."
>
> I have used X10 since 1981 (+100 modules in the house currently), am still
> happy with it, and by latest account I am still in my right mind.
>
> Just because YOU couldn't get it to work, does not mean it is junk.

And just because you're willing to fool with it doesn't mean it's not.

I've used this stuff for decades. X10 devices regardless of vendor, time
and again, can't stand up to use, don't operate in expected fashion and
can't interoperate with other normal UL-approved devices. They're just not
worth the aggravation.

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
news:mcmdnXsiarUfm_DYnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > When I sell the house the new owners don't even need to care about the
> > switches. They're just like normal switches, requiring nothing special
> > about using them.
>
> But will you be able to recover the cost of your investment in RA? I have
> my doubts.

My time and satisfaction is worth something. The time/money wasted on X10
has no doubt been considerably more than the cost of RadioRA gear. Like I
said, I'm not at all worried about recovering the costs. I like how these
work, that makes it worth the expense.

> I also understand that there's a 32/64 device limit, well
> under the 256 that X-10 offers.

Yeah right, two hundred and fifty six pieces of shit that don't work is not
my idea of an advantage. I dare you to get that many working in a residence
anyway. The signal collisions would make it nearly impossible to use it
without driving your spouse insane.

Yeah, in theory I'd like more device addresses. In practice, however, I've
found I don't need more. Since I run all my gear through a PC I could just
add another RS232 interface and a repeater. Not as "easy" as X10 but at
least I'd KNOW they'd work.

> More importantly, RF is *always* subject to interference.

Oh that's bullshit. X10 is even WORSE for being susceptible to
interference. I've got all sorts of RF polluting crap here at the house and
have NEVER, EVER had an interference problem with RadioRA. Not once. And
I've had plenty of RF issues with things IR-RF remote repeaters (besides the
shitty powermid abominations of course).

> I suppose you can
> Faradize your house to keep out EMI from some nearby government
transmitter
> but that would be a bitch.

This is a 50's era brick on block construction house in the DC metro area.
It's ALREADY a faraday cage. Damn near kills cell phone coverage just by
walking indoors. Outside RF is the LEAST of my worries!

> Easier to filter the powerline as it comes into
> the house than the entire radio spectrum as it pours through the walls.

Outside interference isn't what plagues most single homes with X10's crappy
protocol. It's the other devices already inside the house that X10 can't
interoperate with.

> More importantly to me, X-10 is really a dual protocol, using both RF and
> PLC. That gives me a fast fallback position if the local AF base begins
> transmitting a signal that ends up jamming the RF. Not likely, but not
> impossible either.

X10's RF "sucks less" than their powerline crap, I'll give you that. But
barring use of someone else's RF transceiver even that's a pain in the ass
to get working reliably.

> Yes. It's all crap. Anyone reading this should box all their X-10 stuff
up
> and sell it on Ebay before the bottom falls out completely. Palmpads,
> Stickaswitches and their larger AAA powered cousins, appliance modules -
> sell them now before it's too late. No reserve price either. (But drop
me
> a line if you do!) (/sarcasm off)

Had I the patience to put up with shipping all the crap I'd sell 'em on
fleabay. Meanwhile they're just gathering dust. I really don't feel like
inflicting their pain on someone else.

> It all depends on your "use profile." Obviously, for a lot of people,
X-10
> still does the job. Thanks to Jeff V. and the XTB, the major problem I've
> suffered (weak PLC signal) has disappeared and now I am troubled more by
the
> rotten switch feeling of some of the switches. Would I like something
> better? Sure! But there's the little problem of never being able to
> justify to my self or my wife any schema that involved a cost of over $100
a
> load. Or even $50 a load. Her attitude is that we have HA because *I* am
> too lazy to get up and turn off a light. It's hard to advance that
position
> into one where we spend $1,000's on something that we'll never recover in
a
> sale. For us, something like a granite countertop upgrade would be a much
> better long-term investment in so many ways than something like RadioRA. .
..

No doubt, the WAF always comes into play. But for me it's a matter of
balancing between the wife absolutely DESPISING the crappy X10 switch-feel,
not to mention the complete lack of reliability, or the one time
unrecoverable costs. Buck up, waste the money and avoid the complaints.

> But it's really a case of "to each his own." Reliability is important to
> you. Not breaking the budget is important to me. Not putting lots of
money
> into a house we'll be selling soon is also important to me. X-10 lets me
do
> a lot of things for very little money. Not perfectly, but quite well
enough
> to suit my tastes.

I'm always boggled by the number of people that will go to such lengths to
defend the absolutely shitty performance of the X10 gear. It JUST DOESN'T
WORK. Sure, tweak it endlessly and don't add any new devices and you MAY be
able to get it stabilized. It's not a matter of not being perfect, hell,
even I'd put up with some degree of issues. But without having reliable
2-way or status tracking it's just impossible to get it all working in a
manner that doesn't constantly call attention to itself as being a
clusterfuck. This is not conducive to garnering spousal respect.

Of course now with the recent news that Control4 is going to start pimping
their stuff through BestBuy it might be interesting to see how the price
points adjust again...

-Bill Kearney

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Hv6dnemV0_nZDPDYnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

> I'm always boggled by the number of people that will go to such lengths to
> defend the absolutely shitty performance of the X10 gear. It JUST DOESN'T
> WORK. Sure, tweak it endlessly and don't add any new devices and you MAY
be
> able to get it stabilized.

You sound like a typical teckie with money falling out of his pockets.
Can't get something to work? Just throw money at it. Can't be bothered to
understand how it works.

Remember, X10 was developed 30 years ago in a different environment. It
worked then out of the box. The environment has changed, and now it takes
some planning. But X10 still works, and can work 100%. The WAF is
important, and she is my best indicator of any X10 problem. We only had one
cranky module on a compact fluorescent light before adding the XTB. It
missed its OFF command every few months. Now everything works 100%.

So, what "endless tweaking" did I do to get this reliability?

1) Most electronics is on its own circuit isolated by a 20A filter.
2) All circuits with X10 devices were wired to the same phase.
3) Leviton "Intellisense" X10 wall switches are used throughout.
4) All X10 circuits feeding CF ceiling cans use Leviton 6287 filters.
5) One signal sucking UPS is isolated with its own filter.

All but #5 was done over 3 years ago when the house was built. Since then
the only "tweaking" has been to the Ocelot program adjusting irrigation
cycles, and adding even more automation.

RadioRA works well now. Will it run into problems as more RF devices move
into our homes? Only time will tell...

Jeff

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
news:XuudnZ-osJyEHPHYnZ2dnUVZ_oGdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> While I'd love to have the reliability of Centralite or Lutron's RF
> system,
> I don't think I'd ever be able to recover the cost when selling the house.

Having X10 switches installed actually *reduces* the value of the house --
the average home buyer sees this stuff as an unknown, and most home
inspectors will flag it as a liability. Which, IMHO, is correct. If a X10
switch quits working (which is quite common, unless you are using very high
quality stuff like PCS), how will a new homeowner who knows nothing about
X10 be able to fix it? Most likely, they would have to call an electrician
(read: $$$) and they would most likely just replace the X10 w/ a regular
switch.

When you come to sell the place, don't be suprised if you will have to swap
out all of your X10 switches with regular switches.

Kurt