XTB, reliablity, etc.

<craft.brian@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165445536.159582.24560@f1g2000cwa.googlegrou ps.com...
> Robert Green wrote:
>
> > In my case, I distributed some Maxicontrollers around the house and fed
them
> > into (4)XTB's, as well as a CM11A and some TM751's. Most of the time,
we
> > use minicontrollers in the room where lights are located. Even
unboosted,
> > they managed to control the local lights just fine. I rarely need to
> > control a device outside a room that I am actually in except at bedtime
or
> > when I am entering or leaving the house.
>
> In my case even this doesn't work, because a particular room may be fed
> by several different power circuits. I thought this was rather common.
> I typically see outlets and lights on different circuits, and circuits
> tend to follow walls rather than rooms. A controller wired at an entry
> way (as a light switch) is not on the same circuit as any of the
> outlets it might need to control.

I'll agree it's not a perfect solution but 4 more XTB's arrived today
(Thanks Jeff!) that I will be dispersing around the house to cover the few
remaining blind spots. The ones I have had in place for a number of months
have behaved flawlessly so I thought I would invest in some more units and
some Smarthome Controlinc Maxis. The ability to easily and reliably access
all 256 device codes from a single controller is great. Now I'll have 8 of
them spread throughout the house and that means a controller is never more
than a few steps away. Adding a few TM751's and CM11A's enhanced by the XTB
pretty much brings me back to where I feel X10 *should* be.

I was thinking about car analogies and I would say that X10 is like a 30
year old car that's got its issues, but happens to get 100 mpg. It would be
nice to have when the gas prices soar again. That's what I feel the XTB has
brought me - a way to make my old car get 5 times the gas mileage of any
more expensive new one.

Today, I had the joy of tracking down why a minicontroller would no longer
control a lamp plugged into the same outlet. Turns out the Monterey
analyzer was invaluable here. The unit was sending housecode J instead of
B, which it was set to. A few 360 degree twists of the housecode dial got
it back to B but it was a reminder that mechanical stuff does fail. Since I
had picked up a dozen during a Worthington closeout for $3 each, I should
replace it but the switch is in my office and only I use it and I love to
nurse electronics until they stone cold dead. (-: That's part of the reason
I like X10, I suppose - my need to fiddle with things.

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:16:57 -0500, "Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM>
wrote in message <CbKdnWAfvr2a6OTYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@rcn.net>:


>I'll agree it's not a perfect solution but 4 more XTB's arrived today
>(Thanks Jeff!) that I will be dispersing around the house to cover the few
>remaining blind spots. The ones I have had in place for a number of months
>have behaved flawlessly so I thought I would invest in some more units and
>some Smarthome Controlinc Maxis. The ability to easily and reliably access
>all 256 device codes from a single controller is great. Now I'll have 8 of
>them spread throughout the house and that means a controller is never more
>than a few steps away. Adding a few TM751's and CM11A's enhanced by the XTB
>pretty much brings me back to where I feel X10 *should* be.
>
>I was thinking about car analogies and I would say that X10 is like a 30
>year old car that's got its issues, but happens to get 100 mpg.

Sounds more like a 1989 buick with $1000 wheels, fake fur seat covers and
other addon doodads ;-)

Four _more_ ? Have you ever calculated what all the X-10 expenditures have
cost you over the years. And how much you would have earned had you spent the
time tinkering with it on, say, a paper route or mowing lawns instead? Or
better yet, pulling wire?

Betcha coulda hadda hard-wired system ... ;-)

(All in fun -- like playing with HA OK?) ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.EControl.org

Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:16:57 -0500, "Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM>
> wrote in message <CbKdnWAfvr2a6OTYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@rcn.net>:

> Four _more_ ? Have you ever calculated what all the X-10 expenditures have
> cost you over the years. And how much you would have earned had you spent the
> time tinkering with it on, say, a paper route or mowing lawns instead? Or
> better yet, pulling wire?

Pulling wire. Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The ads that suggest
x10 as a way to "add a light switch anywhere" are clearly nonsense. It
takes far, far less time and money to pull romex and install a switch
than it does to make x10 reliable.

But for true automation applications, what wire can be pulled? My
impression was that hardwired systems are all fantastically expensive
and available only to dealers/installers.

> But for true automation applications, what
> wire can be pulled? My impression was
> that hardwired systems are all fantastically
> expensive and available only to dealers /
> installers.

That's a wrong impression. There are a number of reasonably priced hard-wired and RF options which would give far better service
than X10 with nowhere near the hassles and failures. Almost anything, even Crestron (which is definitely *not* for the feint of
heart or light of wallet) can be purchased for DIY.

Several systems require running CAT5 cable and 110VAC to light switch locations. Others, like CentraLite, substitute an HA-enabled
distribution panel for the usual breaker box. These use CAT5 only to the light switches. Obviously, CentraLite and others like it
(Vantage, for example) are less suited for retrofit because every controlled circuit needs to be home run to the box. But systems
like ALS (supported by OnQ, HAI and a few others) can be retrofit. Zwave, regardless of bad press from Mr. Houston who once has
never even seen it, is an interesting option. It requires no new wires, works well and is supported by scores of major
manufacturers. UPB is not quite there yet but it's worth considering.

After much consideration, I've decided to add Z-wave to my online store. Product data should be available shortly. I'll also add
UPB and a few other things soon after. I have no intention at this time of offering Insteon, primarily due to complaints about
Insteon and poor quality of other products from the same manufacturer. As one DIY client put it, I don't want to do their field
testing for them.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:d45jn2ljamrp7ol9480f4rlnhf0kcrrj2h@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:16:57 -0500, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM>
> wrote in message <CbKdnWAfvr2a6OTYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@rcn.net>:
>
>
> >I'll agree it's not a perfect solution but 4 more XTB's arrived today
> >(Thanks Jeff!) that I will be dispersing around the house to cover the
few
> >remaining blind spots. The ones I have had in place for a number of
months
> >have behaved flawlessly so I thought I would invest in some more units
and
> >some Smarthome Controlinc Maxis. The ability to easily and reliably
access
> >all 256 device codes from a single controller is great. Now I'll have 8
of
> >them spread throughout the house and that means a controller is never
more
> >than a few steps away. Adding a few TM751's and CM11A's enhanced by the
XTB
> >pretty much brings me back to where I feel X10 *should* be.
> >
> >I was thinking about car analogies and I would say that X10 is like a 30
> >year old car that's got its issues, but happens to get 100 mpg.
>
> Sounds more like a 1989 buick with $1000 wheels, fake fur seat covers and
> other addon doodads ;-)

Mebbe. All I know is that the wiring won't stand changing out all the
switches many more times and if I want to restore the old toggle switches
without fear of breaking a wire in the wall when I move, I'm ahead by
leaving well enough alone. The next project is a detector that senses the
sorts of power blips that X10 is prone to and resets any units that turn on
accidentally after such a blip to OFF. As someone who's implemented more
than my share of new PC systems and SW, I know full well that any upgrade
causes a lot of disruption. I'm only willing to make such a substantial
change in a new environment, like a new house, where porting the old system
would be just about as painful as installing a new one.

> Four _more_ ? Have you ever calculated what all the X-10 expenditures have
> cost you over the years. And how much you would have earned had you spent
the
> time tinkering with it on, say, a paper route or mowing lawns instead? Or
> better yet, pulling wire?

Actually I *do* have a database with all my X10 equipment recorded in it.
It tracks original cost, replacement cost, manufacture date, firmware
revisions and where each device is located in the house. I track
replacement cost because so many items were acquired at a very deep discount
and I want to be able to replace them all if there's a fire or storm surge
or some such other disaster so they are "listed" items for which I pay a
premium. One of the reasons I expanded X10, even though I really would like
a hard-wired system is that we aren't going to be living here much longer.

While we put up with the enormous problems caused by pulling out all the old
windows and replacing them with Andersons shortly after moving in, neither
one of us is willing to go through that incredibly disruptive process (dust
from the event is still being discovered) for a hardwired lighting control
system. The payback just isn't big enough, although it clearly was worth
the disruption to replace old, badly caulked single-pane windows with
thermopane insulated glass. That renovation had saved us thousands on our
heating and cooling bills and provided significant noise reduction. A
hardwired HA system, at least in my opinion, would not produce those kinds
of returns and so we muddle through with X10. Turbocharging the most often
used controllers will have a big payback in terms of lights not missing the
"ALL OFF" signal and burning all night.

> Betcha coulda hadda hard-wired system ... ;-)

Actually, when it comes time, I'll be selling all my X10 stuff on Ebay and
that $ will contribute nicely to the cost of a hardwired system. I think
I'll be able to recapture a substantial part of my investment, especially
with the XTB's. More importantly, by buying them, I got to help support
Jeff's work in improving quality of life for X10 users. I probably would
not have bought nearly as many had Smarthome been selling them and, in fact,
I will put my mostly useless Boosterlincs up for auction soon since the XTB
outperforms them in every aspect and costs about the same.

> (All in fun -- like playing with HA OK?) ... Marc

OK

--
Bobby G.

"Robert L Bass" <robertbass1@comcast.net> wrote in message

> regardless of bad press from Mr. Houston who once has

Clear foul. You're determined to prolong your feud, aren't you, to the
detriment of the rest of us? Very disappointing, Bob. Very disappointing.

--
Bobby G.

<craft.brian@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165613746.198598.192620@j72g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> > On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:16:57 -0500, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM>
> > wrote in message <CbKdnWAfvr2a6OTYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@rcn.net>:
>
> > Four _more_ ? Have you ever calculated what all the X-10 expenditures
have
> > cost you over the years. And how much you would have earned had you
spent the
> > time tinkering with it on, say, a paper route or mowing lawns instead?
Or
> > better yet, pulling wire?
>
> Pulling wire. Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The ads that suggest
> x10 as a way to "add a light switch anywhere" are clearly nonsense. It
> takes far, far less time and money to pull romex and install a switch
> than it does to make x10 reliable.

Maybe one switch. How about 16? What if you've got a bad situation like a
very old house with some totally inaccessible spaces? I'd say X-10 does a
pretty good job if the installer understands its real world operating
parameters. Oh, and since X-10 *can* be made reliable without hiring an
electrician, usually within the constraints of the UL and NEC, it trumps
pulling that old 12/2 romex any day. There's usually no one who would
consider pulling a new hardwire 3 way switch as easy as an X-10 based
solution except an electrician or a *very* seasoned DIY'er.

> But for true automation applications, what wire can be pulled? My
> impression was that hardwired systems are all fantastically expensive
> and available only to dealers/installers.

Not true. As noted elsewhere, there's quite a spectrum of hardwired HA
equipment.

I've not found exactly what I want yet, but I believe that in another ten
years it will be commerically available because the subsystems to make it
are coming on line.

My preference would be an HA system that was ethernet based, used standard
hubs and switches, allowed each switch to act as a mini-server, capable of
generating and receiving messages and taking actions as well. That switch
would also be a lot smarter than any wallswitch around today. It would know
dark/light, current temperature and humidity at that location, have a mic, a
PTZ camera, a PIR, an ultrasonic detector, a microwave emitter and detector
and an LCD display. All things that could be comfortably handled via
ethernet. It would also look just like a toggle switch - if you wanted it
to.

I'm glad that it's not here just yet because I am not ready to act on it.
If I were building new, I think I'd go with ALS/HAI at the moment. If I did
win the lottery and were to start building tomorrow I use that and pull one
or maybe two more CAT6 cables to each switchbox. Instead of all the scenes
and ramp rates and all the other BS controls offer, I'd like a switch smart
enough to know someone's *really* left the room so it had better turn out
that light! Smart enough to know the room's too cold, the floor vent is
closed; too hot and humid, someone left the window open and the AC on . . .
you get the idea. A "smart" home. Not one where lights just turn on and
off by remote. That's not quite here yet, but it's coming. In the
meantime, X10 does just fine!

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote:

>My preference would be an HA system that was ethernet based, used standard
>hubs and switches, allowed each switch to act as a mini-server, capable of
>generating and receiving messages and taking actions as well. That switch
>would also be a lot smarter than any wallswitch around today. It would know
>dark/light, current temperature and humidity at that location, have a mic, a
>PTZ camera, a PIR, an ultrasonic detector, a microwave emitter and detector
>and an LCD display. All things that could be comfortably handled via
>ethernet. It would also look just like a toggle switch - if you wanted it
>to.

Control4 was listing hardwired dimmer switches controlled over ethernet via
CAT5 cables but they were gone from their website the last time I checked.
They seem to change product lines monthly.

I still think HomePlug is the most likely winner. It's powerline but uses
some of the same techniques as their BPL technology. I expect reliability to
be high but cost is likely to be higher than Insteon or UPB but still lower
and more retrofittable than hard-wired.

http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Robert Green wrote:
> "Robert L Bass" <robertbass1@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
>
>>regardless of bad press from Mr. Houston who once has
>
>
> Clear foul. You're determined to prolong your feud, aren't you, to the
> detriment of the rest of us? Very disappointing, Bob. Very disappointing.


Heh. Like Robert is actually going to listen... He'll continue posting
little jabs at DH along with PR, INFO and FS posts because you nimrods
have decided that it's "alright" for him to do so because he's
considered a "valued contributor".

>> regardless of bad press from Mr. Houston who once has
>
> Clear foul.

Not at all. Houston bad mouths Z-Wave without ever having seen it, much less tested it. His apparent reason is he mistakenly
believes that I sell it. He has repeatedly and wrongly maligned an excellent product, to the detriment of the newsgroup.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>