XTB, reliablity, etc.

I know this topic has been flogged to death, but here goes.

I've had some x10 gear for a few years. As everyone knows, it's not
very reliable. I've spent some time experimenting and debugging, trying
to improve the performance. Unfortunately, however much I twiddle with
filters and what-not, it's never very reliable.

I realized a few months ago exactly why that is. The fundamental
problem with the notion of fiddling with x10 filters, boosters, and
meters "until it works" is that it imagines the home power distribution
network as something that is static, or nearly static. If it's static,
you identify the noise sources, the signal sinks, and what-not, and you
compensate. But this doesn't really work.

It doesn't work because the power network changes constantly. As a
typical American household we have dozens of electronic appliances, and
things get plugged and unplugged every day. Laptops, shavers, mixers,
toy ovens, vacuums. Electronic items get purchased and sold regularly.
Every day, at any moment, in any room, on any circuit with outlets,
someone may plug in a laptop, or a vacuum, or a boombox, or a baby
monitor, or who knows what, and abruptly the x10 signal distribution
has changed. Some light switch stops working. Why? Well.. that could
take hours to debug. And the solution doesn't generalize. It doesn't
prevent the NEXT signal failure, when someone plugs something else in
on a different circuit. It may even depend on permutations, like a
boombox here and a noisy ballast there. There are literally thousands
of permutations of things plugged in and things turned on, any number
of which may disrupt x10 signalling.

SO... my question: To the people who seem to be reasonably successful
with tweaking this stuff (I'm thinking of Jeff Volp and others), how do
you deal with this? Do you carefully monitor what gets plugged in? Do
you live alone, as opposed to in a house with several other people who
might plug things in? Is there some other secret to tweaking x10 so it
works even when six different things are plugged in over the course of
a day?

I just saw the XTB page for the first time, and all the gushing reviews
about how this solves everything, or nearly everything. On closer
inspection, though, it seems to more or less confirm that power line
transmission basically doesn't work. The XTB boosts the power of an RF
transponder. So to build out with XTB, you basically have to move
everything to RF. It doesn't help with other x10 signal sources, like
wired controllers. And, if you have several plug-in x10 signal sources,
you need an XTB, at $80, for each one. So you really do have to move
everything to RF, or dump $80 more for every device that's going to
generate x10 signals (in which case you could spend it on some
higher-end technology instead of x10).

Unfortunately, RF isn't a great choice for me either, because metal
lathe in some of the walls leaves RF shadows around the house.

First, I want to clear up a misconception. The X10 signal sent down the
powerline IS essentially RF. It is a 120KHz carrier that is switched on and
off in 1 mS bursts. The XTB sends the boosted 120KHz carrier over the
powerline like any other plug-in X10 device. It does not rely on any RF
transmission through the air.

What you say about the power distribution system being dynamic is very true.
It is also a very complex problem sending 120KHz over wires designed to
carry 60Hz power. It turns out that the wire lengths and distributed
capacitance in a typical household distribution network can result in a
multiplicity of resonant circuits at 120KHz. That will cause peaks and
nulls throughout the network even neglecting the impact from various noise
sources and signal suckers. Any automation system that sends encoded data
over the powerline as an RF carrier must somehow deal with these issues.

The XTB takes a brute force approach, and just pounds out a stronger signal.
It has enough power supply behind it to deal with a few signal suckers. If
you have a couple of wired X10 sources at the same location, their outputs
can both be boosted by a single plug-in XTB.

There is also the XTB-II, which is designed to be installed adjacent to the
electrical distribution panel to drive both phases directly. It has
built-in TW523 emulation for a high-end automation controller. And the new
firmware upgrade includes a repeater function so that all standard X10
signals received by the built-in X10 decoder can be re-transmitted in sync
with the second copy.

To answer your other question regarding monitoring what is plugged in, I
don't do that. Known problem sources have been isolated with filters. My
approach has been to insure there is sufficient signal level on all X10
circuits so it doesn't matter what is plugged in - even an occasional signal
sucker. That works for us because there have been no recognized X10 control
problems in the last several months.

Jeff

<craft.brian@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165002601.106458.163160@f1g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> I know this topic has been flogged to death, but here goes.
>
> I've had some x10 gear for a few years. As everyone knows, it's not
> very reliable. I've spent some time experimenting and debugging, trying
> to improve the performance. Unfortunately, however much I twiddle with
> filters and what-not, it's never very reliable.
>
> I realized a few months ago exactly why that is. The fundamental
> problem with the notion of fiddling with x10 filters, boosters, and
> meters "until it works" is that it imagines the home power distribution
> network as something that is static, or nearly static. If it's static,
> you identify the noise sources, the signal sinks, and what-not, and you
> compensate. But this doesn't really work.
>
> It doesn't work because the power network changes constantly. As a
> typical American household we have dozens of electronic appliances, and
> things get plugged and unplugged every day. Laptops, shavers, mixers,
> toy ovens, vacuums. Electronic items get purchased and sold regularly.
> Every day, at any moment, in any room, on any circuit with outlets,
> someone may plug in a laptop, or a vacuum, or a boombox, or a baby
> monitor, or who knows what, and abruptly the x10 signal distribution
> has changed. Some light switch stops working. Why? Well.. that could
> take hours to debug. And the solution doesn't generalize. It doesn't
> prevent the NEXT signal failure, when someone plugs something else in
> on a different circuit. It may even depend on permutations, like a
> boombox here and a noisy ballast there. There are literally thousands
> of permutations of things plugged in and things turned on, any number
> of which may disrupt x10 signalling.
>
> SO... my question: To the people who seem to be reasonably successful
> with tweaking this stuff (I'm thinking of Jeff Volp and others), how do
> you deal with this? Do you carefully monitor what gets plugged in? Do
> you live alone, as opposed to in a house with several other people who
> might plug things in? Is there some other secret to tweaking x10 so it
> works even when six different things are plugged in over the course of
> a day?
>
> I just saw the XTB page for the first time, and all the gushing reviews
> about how this solves everything, or nearly everything. On closer
> inspection, though, it seems to more or less confirm that power line
> transmission basically doesn't work. The XTB boosts the power of an RF
> transponder. So to build out with XTB, you basically have to move
> everything to RF. It doesn't help with other x10 signal sources, like
> wired controllers. And, if you have several plug-in x10 signal sources,
> you need an XTB, at $80, for each one. So you really do have to move
> everything to RF, or dump $80 more for every device that's going to
> generate x10 signals (in which case you could spend it on some
> higher-end technology instead of x10).
>
> Unfortunately, RF isn't a great choice for me either, because metal
> lathe in some of the walls leaves RF shadows around the house.
>

"Jeff Volp" <JeffVolp@msn.com> wrote:

>First, I want to clear up a misconception. The X10 signal sent down the
>powerline IS essentially RF. It is a 120KHz carrier that is switched on and
>off in 1 mS bursts. The XTB sends the boosted 120KHz carrier over the
>powerline like any other plug-in X10 device. It does not rely on any RF
>transmission through the air.

I'm not sure you cleared that up. I think the OP saw the TM751 plugged into
the XTB and misinterpreted that to mean that was the only thing that it will
boost. It will boost any X-10 transmitter plugged into it.

http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Dave Houston wrote:
> "Jeff Volp" <JeffVolp@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >First, I want to clear up a misconception. The X10 signal sent down the
> >powerline IS essentially RF. It is a 120KHz carrier that is switched on and
> >off in 1 mS bursts. The XTB sends the boosted 120KHz carrier over the
> >powerline like any other plug-in X10 device. It does not rely on any RF
> >transmission through the air.
>
> I'm not sure you cleared that up. I think the OP saw the TM751 plugged into
> the XTB and misinterpreted that to mean that was the only thing that it will
> boost. It will boost any X-10 transmitter plugged into it.
>

I understand what it does. It just doesn't help much for wired devices
that send x10. It only helps for things you plug in, which are RF
transponders and PC/microcontrollers. So, to actually use the XTB, you
will end up moving all of the user inputs to RF so they can be relayed
through a transponder to the XTB. Wired transmitters such as light
switches won't benefit. Even if you pop open the XTB and wire it
in-line with a wired controller, you'd need one at every location you
want to put a controller, which would be expensive and difficult to
install.

So an XTB solution is really about eliminating x10 signals generated
directly from user input, and using RF instead.

That was actually the TW523 that the XTB was originally designed to
interface with. But it does look like the TM751, and someone might assume
it only buffers RF signals.

I thought a bit about this after my earlier message, and it sounds like the
OP arranges his filters by trial and error until he finds a configuration
that works. Unfortunately, that is likely to be just over the minimum
acceptable signal levels, and the next widget plugged in could cause a
problem.

To get a reliable X10 system (and I mean RELIABLE), one has to do some
homework. The fact that adding a filter doesn't seem to change anything
doesn't mean that device is not causing a problem. It may not be enough by
itself, but can be when something else is added on the same circuit.

We know most computers will cause problems, so they all should have filters.
Compact fluorescents are a gray area. Some work fine, but others can be a
problem, and will need a filter. Some electronics, like our old Sony TV and
our APC UPS are major signal suckers, and need filters. The best way to
identify these is to use a X10 signal level meter like the ESM1 to measure
signal levels throughout the house. I use a palmpad to trigger commands
from a RF transceiver near the main controller. Monitor each AC receptacle
with a possible problem device either plugged in or not. If there is ANY
change when the device is either plugged in or switched on, than that device
should be filtered. No maybe. You want reliability.

Then go around to all receptacles. If any read down around 100mV, that
circuit is a candidate for problems. Locate any remaining signal suckers on
that circuit. If none are found, then the overall signal level should be
increased. That's why I built the XTB in the first place. We have one
central circuit with nine X10 devices on it, including several transmitters.
That circuit read only 100mV. Everything still worked, but was marginal.
Adding a XTB down at the breaker panel raised that circuit up to 1V, so I
don't have to worry about any random device being plugged in.

There are other things that can be done to make the house X10 friendly, like
move all X10 circuits to the same phase. We also installed the small
Leviton 6287 filters on all X10 ceiling can circuits that could possibly use
CF bulbs. I didn't bother testing the bulbs first because I was after
reliability.

If one takes the time to set the system up properly in the first place, then
there is not the continual debugging whenever the next electronic widget is
added. Do the homework, and the system works. Recently my wife said one
light didn't come on when it should have. It turned out that after several
years the bulb finally burnt out. I guess X10 can't fix everything.

Jeff

"Dave Houston" <nobody@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4570ab27.30203921@nntp.fuse.net...
> "Jeff Volp" <JeffVolp@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >First, I want to clear up a misconception. The X10 signal sent down the
> >powerline IS essentially RF. It is a 120KHz carrier that is switched on
and
> >off in 1 mS bursts. The XTB sends the boosted 120KHz carrier over the
> >powerline like any other plug-in X10 device. It does not rely on any RF
> >transmission through the air.
>
> I'm not sure you cleared that up. I think the OP saw the TM751 plugged
into
> the XTB and misinterpreted that to mean that was the only thing that it
will
> boost. It will boost any X-10 transmitter plugged into it.
>
> http://davehouston.net
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
> roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

<craft.brian@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165015879.904855.296380@f1g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

> I understand what it does. It just doesn't help much for wired devices
> that send x10. It only helps for things you plug in, which are RF
> transponders and PC/microcontrollers. So, to actually use the XTB, you
> will end up moving all of the user inputs to RF so they can be relayed
> through a transponder to the XTB. Wired transmitters such as light
> switches won't benefit. Even if you pop open the XTB and wire it
> in-line with a wired controller, you'd need one at every location you
> want to put a controller, which would be expensive and difficult to
> install.

The XTB works with any plug-in X10 device like the maxicontroller, CM11A,
TW523, or RR501. Most light switches are receivers only, and they will
receive a stronger signal for more reliable control when using the XTB. You
are correct that the XTB was not designed to boost the output of wire-in
transmitters like the Leviton 16400.

The XTB and XTB-II are both intended to boost the output of your primary
automation controller to boost signal levels throughout your house, and
increase reliability. The XTB cannot boost the output of remote
transmitters. However, the repeater function of the XTB-II can do that if
the remote transmitter can get an acceptable signal to the XTB-II.

Jeff

craft.brian@gmail.com wrote:

>I understand what it does. It just doesn't help much for wired devices
>that send x10. It only helps for things you plug in, which are RF
>transponders and PC/microcontrollers. So, to actually use the XTB, you
>will end up moving all of the user inputs to RF so they can be relayed
>through a transponder to the XTB. Wired transmitters such as light
>switches won't benefit. Even if you pop open the XTB and wire it
>in-line with a wired controller, you'd need one at every location you
>want to put a controller, which would be expensive and difficult to
>install.
>
>So an XTB solution is really about eliminating x10 signals generated
>directly from user input, and using RF instead.



http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Thanks, Jeff. That was interesting. I have mostly worked by trial and
error, trying to identify appliances that cause signal loss.

b.c.

Jeff Volp wrote:
> I thought a bit about this after my earlier message, and it sounds like the
> OP arranges his filters by trial and error until he finds a configuration
> that works. Unfortunately, that is likely to be just over the minimum
> acceptable signal levels, and the next widget plugged in could cause a
> problem.

craft.brian@gmail.com wrote:

>I understand what it does. It just doesn't help much for wired devices
>that send x10. It only helps for things you plug in, which are RF
>transponders and PC/microcontrollers. So, to actually use the XTB, you
>will end up moving all of the user inputs to RF so they can be relayed
>through a transponder to the XTB. Wired transmitters such as light
>switches won't benefit. Even if you pop open the XTB and wire it
>in-line with a wired controller, you'd need one at every location you
>want to put a controller, which would be expensive and difficult to
>install.

No, you still haven't grasped what it does. It amplifies the PLC (i.e.
PowrLine Control) signal of any X10 PLC transmitter plugged into it.

Any receiver, including light switches, will benefit from the stronger
control signals. If you have switches that also transmit (some Leviton, some
Switchlinc) their output will not be amplified but that's usually an
insignificant part of the "usual suspects" when it comes to X-10 problems.
There's a dearth of software that does anything with the feedback signals
from such switches.

>So an XTB solution is really about eliminating x10 signals generated
>directly from user input, and using RF instead.

Not even close. I think you lack an understanding of the fundamentals and
your X-10 system performance likely suffers as a result.

http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I understand the technology fine, Dave. Get over yourself.

Can you spell this out for me Dave?

> >So an XTB solution is really about eliminating x10 signals generated
> >directly from user input, and using RF instead.
>
> Not even close.

User pushes a button on a wired device that generates x10 signals. How
does the XTB help?

The answer is, it doesn't. It only helps if the user pushes a button on
an RF transmitter, that will be relayed through the XTB. If the signal
doesn't go through the XTB, it isn't doing anything.

b.c.

Dave Houston wrote:
> craft.brian@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >I understand what it does. It just doesn't help much for wired devices
> >that send x10. It only helps for things you plug in, which are RF
> >transponders and PC/microcontrollers. So, to actually use the XTB, you
> >will end up moving all of the user inputs to RF so they can be relayed
> >through a transponder to the XTB. Wired transmitters such as light
> >switches won't benefit. Even if you pop open the XTB and wire it
> >in-line with a wired controller, you'd need one at every location you
> >want to put a controller, which would be expensive and difficult to
> >install.
>
> No, you still haven't grasped what it does. It amplifies the PLC (i.e.
> PowrLine Control) signal of any X10 PLC transmitter plugged into it.
>
> Any receiver, including light switches, will benefit from the stronger
> control signals. If you have switches that also transmit (some Leviton, some
> Switchlinc) their output will not be amplified but that's usually an
> insignificant part of the "usual suspects" when it comes to X-10 problems.
> There's a dearth of software that does anything with the feedback signals
> from such switches.
>
> >So an XTB solution is really about eliminating x10 signals generated
> >directly from user input, and using RF instead.
>
> Not even close. I think you lack an understanding of the fundamentals and
> your X-10 system performance likely suffers as a result.
>
> http://davehouston.net
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
> roZetta-subscribe@yahoogroups.com